Before Matthew published his recent post on a man that helped himself to the bathroom before takeoff while the seatbelt sign was on, I had penned the following post. On a flight to the Freddies from Chicago Midway to Seattle/Tacoma, the seatbelt sign was illuminated the entire flight – it was unwarranted in its entirety. But there are real safety concerns that arise as a result of leaving the seatbelt sign on without cause.
If you are considering booking travel or signing up for a new credit card please click here. Both support LiveAndLetsFly.com.
If you haven’t followed us on Facebook or Instagram, add us today.
Safety First, Especially This Week
My wife loves a good rule (I prefer to break them – rebel, I know). Following last week’s uncontrolled engine failure on another Southwest flight, we reminded ourselves that sometimes, bad things happen and that safety is always worth a review. Just look at how many fools were taking selfies with their oxygen masks on incorrectly. As Bobby Laurie (famed flight attendant and former Upgrd.com contributor) stated on Twitter, “The instructions are on the bag!”
We counted the rows to the nearest exit – it was behind us, eight rows, the maximum limit for a safe exit according to experts (though some now recommend five). We were buckled up tight and insisted on our daughter wearing her full top and bottom CARES harness, usually, we only make her buckle both for takeoff and landing. We followed instructions including the seatbelt sign and paid attention to the briefing, no shame in an occasional re-certification from time-to-time, right?
Smooth Coast-to-Coast
From the banks of Lake Michigan to the Pacific Ocean our 737-800 was riding smooth. There were normal odds and end bumps along the four-hour flight, but I fly 250,000 miles/year- trust me, it was a totally smooth flight. It was simple, the pilot made a mistake and forgot to turn the sign off. He/She is human, there’s no shame in making a mistake. However, 90 minutes into the flight I queried one of the flight attendants as to whether or not the sign could come off.
She said, “When the pilot feels it’s safe, the sign will come off.”
Yeah, that’s fair enough, and I wouldn’t want the pilot to do anything unsafe, but this wasn’t a matter of safety, this was a matter of forgetfulness, something everyone is guilty of on occasion. I’m not mad at the pilot, but then I got a follow-up question from the FA.
“There’s something else is on your mind. I can see it on your face” Gulity as charged. She could see that I didn’t think that safety was the problem.
“I want the flight to be safe, it just seemed like maybe the pilot forgot.” Because clearly they had.
“If there’s nothing else-” she said as she walked off. Her version of sit down and be quiet, you got your answer.
Earlier in the week I had been on a total of five flights, four on American (two of which were through thunderstorms) and the previous flight on Southwest a couple of hours before. On every one of them the seatbelt sign came off at some point, and each of those flights was rougher than this one was. The flight attendant was simply unwilling to even ask the cockpit if it could be turned off.
Fatigue Wears In
My wife, who needed to use the facilities from before we boarded the aircraft waited more than an hour and a half dutifully and adhered to the FA’s advice that the pilot hadn’t forgotten and there was a genuine safety concern. I’m afraid I am a bit more cynical.
The problem is, that the effectiveness of the protocol is diminished if it’s always on. The same thing happens with Homeland Security’s Threat Level, never dropping below yellow (“elevated risk for terroristic threat”) since its inception. If it’s always elevated, your awareness is no longer heightened, fatigue sets in and wear down any safety benefits.
Sure enough, 45-50 minutes into the flight, stragglers started to head to the bathroom, knowing that the sign was either on in error or that legally, this is the one time a passenger can ignore a crew members orders and make their own judgment call. It wasn’t quite a steady flow by the time my wife decided that she would finally excuse herself despite the sign and the FA’s insistence that it was a pertinent safety request. She returned a few minutes later with all of her limbs in good working order, no bumps, no bruises; the sign remained illuminated. I followed suit, heading first to the rear of the aircraft where the aforementioned FA was making herself lunch, then to the front as it became available. Three more crew members had gathered there, catching up like anyone does with co-workers at their job. I decided not to mention it to them and moved into the restroom, no one said a word.
By the end of the flight, passengers filled the aisles and forgot it was on. But what if severe turbulence struck the flight? They would be right to assume it was safe to be up based both on the volume of passengers up and about and the disinterest from the staff. The airline would be blameless in the event of injury, even from a standpoint of effort stating that the seatbelt sign was on – they shouldn’t have been up.
Flight Attendant Empowerment Remains Out-Of-Hand
When September 11thoccurred, airlines were able to get away with stern treatment of customers by calling it a safety matter. The number of times a questionable “security” concern over the last 17 years has resulted in a passenger getting thrown off a plane (or dragged off of one) has become so common that it’s not even news anymore. It goes beyond Dao, just take a look at one of Matthew’s most popular posts in which he was forced off a flight to Istanbul for a safety concern because he took a photo of the in-flight entertainment screen.
The Federal Aviation Administration’s was just re-authorized (as it is every year) but new and improved for this year, verbally assaulting a crew member can result in the forceful removal of a passenger from the plane. Which makes sense because the lesson learned from Dr. Dao incident is that the police – wait, no they weren’t, they just had the jackets – should have had the authority to drag out and bloody the man. But what counts as verbal assault, is it in the eye of the beholder as the “security risk” was with Matthew’s photo incident?
I was polite with the FA but didn’t push it even though her response was curt and dismissive because whether I have the right to ask if a gate-to-gate seatbelt sign is necessary or a mistake is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether the FA feels that I am a problem, a challenge, or perhaps that she just doesn’t like me asking the question. If so, I could have expected to meet police officers at SeaTac upon landing, or worse, divert if she felt particularly challenged. No matter how blatantly absurd the possibility of a gate-to-gate need for the seatbelts to remain on and in theory, no passengers out of their seats for a four-hour flight – it doesn’t matter, and that’s got to stop. The government should reduce the power tripping rights of rogue flight attendants using safety as a cover for dealing with problems they don’t want to handle as part of a customer-facing job. I should be clear that most flight attendants I encounter are great, and I have only seen a handful of people ever taken off a flight, but I shouldn’t have to feel like I am risking jail time or at least a long conversation with a police officer to ask why the seatbelt sign was on for four smooth hours of flight.
Have you been on a flight like this? What did you do about it? Was the flight attendant out of line, or should I have been more insistent?
I suspect US pilots leave it on intentionally so, in the event of unexpected turbulence that injures someone, they can go, “Oh, we had the seatbelt light on! Passengers disobeyed! Can’t sue us!”
Of course, this means passengers are more likely to be injured in addition to the airline being less likely to be sued, but this is the USA and the rights of consumers always come second to those of wealthy airlines and corporations
While I won’t disagree that the US is a legal-liability driven culture I don’t think that was the case here. I mentioned early in the post that the same week on a variety of airlines (including one flight on Southwest immediately prior to this one) that the sign came off and on depending on flight stage in all of the other flights.
Completely agree with this. I also always have the impression that US based airlines do seem to have them on more. However I’ve seen many a flight where it’s left on for a long time so people just ignore it. As you say above, if people do not believe it’s valid, then someone is going to get injured when it is valid.
I have been on countless flights in Asia (regardless of carrier or destination) where passengers were in the aisle from the time the plane cleared the runway but had not yet parked. The aircraft could be taxiing and turning and someone will without fail pull something from the overhead bins and head towards the door.
I just wonder, when keeping the seatbelt sign on for the entire flight is standard, can’t the airline be liable if customers start to ignore it and get up to use the bathroom? If it does not really indicate a safety concern, then the airline is conditioning the passengers to ignore it.
I don’t think the airline can e held liable in either case, though I doubt that would stop someone from trying to litigate it in court at some point anyway.
This neatly sums up one of the main reasons why flying on US carriers is so awful – the FAs
Not all, but there are some that need to be reined in certainly.
What was the FA’s response when your spouse asked if she could use the lavatory? This question would allow better understanding of the customer service skills of the crew vs a hypothetical argument on the reason the seatbelt sign was kept on.
I guess I was trying to avoid putting my wife on the spot. In my mind, I expected to receive back a response along the lines of: “Oh maybe, I can ask but until then assume it is supposed to be on.” But instead I got the response that I did and then the followup was as dismissive as the first response so I just kind of let it go. I didn’t want my wife, who was just trying to follow the rules, feel awkward if I asked for an exception. Others decided not to ask at all and just got up so eventually, we did the same, I was surprised others weren’t subjected to the same surly attitude.
…maybe she just needed a bit of her lunch.
I’m working as a flight attendant. If the crew tells you “safety reasons” , they are not allowed to tell the reason why the seatbelt sign is on. If you inssist and create problems, you can explain everything to a police officer.
The answer is yes, the FA was rude, but you also did the right thing by letting it go. Seems pretty clear arguing with her would just get you deemed a “security threat”. A date with the police is the last thing you need in front of your wife and daughter.
That being said, I’m inferring that a 738 from Midway means you were flying Southwest. I can’t help but wonder if perhaps there is some kind of company edict to pilots to keep the sign on more after Flight 1380.
Kyle,
Certainly there have been times I’ve forgotten the seat belt sign. In my 19 years as a airline pilot I can at most think of one Captain who left if on as a matter of course.
I’m strongly opposed to the new language that criminalizes verbal assault. It’s simply not needed and likely to cause more problems than it solves. I should also mention that in all those years as a pilot I’ve seen a grand total of one pax removed from the airplane and that for being drunk and belligerent.
I can’t speak to the FA in question but I have seen numerous instances where they called us and asked to have the sign turned on and frankly I strongly suspect they just wanted an excuse to kick people out of the galley.
There seems to be a belief in the travel blogger community that FA’s are out of control on power trips. That we need to reduce their authority to solve this problem. I’m not going to say that never happens because clearly it does. Matthew getting kicked off his United flight several years ago is a great example of a power tripping FA and a Captain who was weak and didn’t deserve his 4 stripes. But those are exceptions to the rule as my 1 pax in 19 years illustrates. The authority flight crews have they had prior to 911. That event just made us a bit more proactive. There are very good reasons for that authority and diminishing it isn’t the solution to the problem. Better training for crews is.
Let’s turn to the FA in question who I would guess falls into the group that a.) can’t be bothered, and b.) wants the sign on to minimize their workload. My suggestion in a case like hers would be to look at her and say “We need to use the bathroom. Will you please ask the Captain if it’s safe to do so?” It’s going to be hard for her to refuse that request. Additionally I can tell you that complaints about FA’s get taken seriously at my airline even if the response to you indicates otherwise. I know that a very strong majority of our FA’s believe that the company would believe a customer over them in the event of a complaint.
It’s popular tor criticize cops for over reacting when things go wrong. What people often forget is that the incidents when what looked like a normal traffic stop turned deadly
I presume you have access to the email we list when making a comment. I’d be happy to chat about this more if your interested.
121Pilot – I agree with you that this was more likely than not an honest mistake. I type this response from aboard another Southwest flight and some 40 minutes in the sign has remained illuminated, but this time for good reason. We are climbing out from Denver and the pilot has made it clear that there is both normal bumpiness due to the mountains and some additional “light chop” following a weather system. He communicated the sign would remain on for a bit but would turn it off as soon as he was able. That’s the perfect approach because I do not want to be up and about if it’s not safe.
I agree as well that most of the FAs I encounter are really very good, some I would even venture to say spectacular. But there are some (like any profession) who as you put it, can’t be bothered. The only problem is that in other jobs, if a customer service rep can’t be bothered, they can’t then have the customer kicked out simply for questioning their statement or taking umbrage with their approach. If all of the incidents we see (and there are videos filling the pages of YouTube) where it didn’t seem like a genuine safety risk then had some sort of inverse action for the FA, then it would seem more equitable. It creates a nervous environment for flyers, even experienced ones, where I am careful not to cross an FA even if they are out of line simply because I don’t want the hassle and the delay in my plans.
There are some great FAs but there are also some really bad ones that have used the need for safety as a need to stop doing their job and that’s not ok.
Kyle,
I think we are in agreement here in most respects. The question is what do you think needs to be done to reign in the small percentage of FA’s who are drunk with power? It seems that you think we need to reduce their authority. The problem is how do we do that?
The FA’s authority ultimately derives from two statutes. The first says that the PIC of the airplane is in command and his word goes. That’s as it should be and reducing PIC authority is fraught with real peril. The FA’s derive their authority from the PIC because once he’s in command they work for him. Secondly is the federal law that makes it illegal to interfere with a flight crew member. There are very sound reasons for that law as well and like many laws it requires some sound thinking by those who would prosecute under it to prevent abuse.
So if changing the rules that give FA’s their authority what’s the solution? I think the answer is training. FA’s need to be trained to understand how and when to apply their authority. They should be trained in customer service part of which should include how to de-escalate conflicts when they occur. There are a great many ways to gain compliance and the very last one you should employ is a threat to have the person arrested.
How do I think you address this in the meantime? First always stay calm. Keep emotion out of the issue to the maximum extent possible. Secondly if you feel an FA is behaving badly then by all means complain to the airline. You won’t know it but it does get taken seriously. Third if the conflict occurs on the ground comply but then ask to speak with the PIC or GSC or both.
A personal story. This last year we flew out to be with family for Christmas. We have the CARES harnesses for the kids and as I was in the process of getting my son strapped in the FA came by and told me we could not use it for takeoff and landing. I stayed ca;m and explained that it was an FAA approved harness. He knew that but said that his manual prohibited its use. Knowing I was right I asked him to please get his manual and show it to me. He went away and came back a few minutes later and admitted he was wrong. Hey no problem it happens. They key was I stayed calm, didn’t refuse to obey specific instructions given, and then appealed to the source of his authority.
121Pilot – I think you raise some good points but let me clarify my position. I think that if something is criminal in nature or against the company policy that FAs should have some latitude. When flying, everyone is trapped in a metal tube so unlike other customer service roles where you can show someone the door or get police assistance, FAs don’t have those options, so I am okay with some different rules than when they are on the ground. But they need to be clearly outlined, not subjective. I keep pointing to Matthew’s photography incident, not because I think it is an outlier but because it is the best case in my opinion of how out of hand FA power trips can get, and how little recourse there is even when empirical evidence can be produced to the contrary. For example, Matthew had access to both the photography policy (in the back of the airline magazine at his seat) as well as the pictures themselves to prove that the FA was in fact out of line. They also were not yet in the air. Yet despite evidence of both a clear written policy distributed to every seat on the aircraft in black and white and of course the images taken, she was unilaterally taken at her word and Matthew had to find alternate transportation. This is not an isolated incident and FAs behaving badly in the name of safety is widely distributed on YouTube.
We agree that most FAs are generally well-intentioned and that they should be given a little more room to act than those in other customer service situations. But I also believe that the customer, if following airline policy and federal law, should not be permitted to subjectively determine when a passenger is challenging a flight attendant to the point that they can be removed from a flight by police.
We also agree that the key is training. Right now, as a passenger, it feels like anything I say to an FA that they can misconstrue as they choose could result in my expulsion from an aircraft. I was in paid F a few weeks ago and a flight attendant couldn’t muster up 12 PDBs in 25 minutes on the ground with the door open. Just didn’t ask, wasn’t bothered. I made a conscious effort to not say anything despite this being part of what is paid for with an F ticket, because I couldn’t miss my meeting. Based on the new language, if it seems like I am being combative in just asking for something that I have already paid for, I could find myself on the next flight or in the pokey. Training would help a lot. There should be penalties inside the airline for the staff just like there would be on the ground. If a customer asked for a salad that didn’t get delivered but comes with their meal at a restaurant, it would be preposterous to expel the customer and if such occurred, the server, not the client would be the one to blame.
I can file a complaint, certainly, but unions are strong and I doubt disciplinary action that could cost a passenger a meeting, a deal, or an appearance at an important event would be as damaging for the employee.
At some point, management for the airlines need to stand up to their FAs and remind them that we are the customer and they are in the service industry as much as the transportation business. If they do not want to serve customers, those FAs should find a non customer-facing role. It seems basic to me, but if an architect doesn’t like blueprints, they should probably find another business. And while they are primarily there for our safety, the customer service aspect is also part of their job. I shouldn’t feel like I am at risk of diverting a plane (and the cost implications associated with such) because I challenge that in smooth flight, the seatbelt sign might have been illuminated by accident and not intent.
In regards to your experience with the CARES harness (we love it and use it all the time, we wouldn’t fly our daughter without it) we have had a similar experience from time-to-time. We approach it the same way, show them the the FAA Approved tag, and invite them in understanding how it works and why it’s important. They have always complied.
I am not saying there isn’t a way to make this work, or that all FAs are behaving badly, but the ones that are face little recourse and the new legislation seems to have further muddied the waters making it more subjective in favor of a wayward FA and less so in the favor of the paying customer.
I really appreciate the discourse on this 121, the day we can’t have an open debate is the day I stop writing for LiveAndLetsFly.
Kyle,
One of the aspects of this blog and especially yours and your wife’s posts is the extent to which you are willing to engage with your readers. It’s truly remarkable and refreshing.
I agree with your last reply 100%. You are absolutely spot on. Like you I’m also strongly opposed to the new legislation that would criminalize verbal interactions that airline employees don’t like.
What I would like to see is legislation that would take a case like Matthew’s and make the airline liable for compensation that would really sting. That’s likely what it’s going to take to get them to take the rights of their customers seriously.
You are really a pilot ?! Really ?! In my company for take off and landing the infant stay on its mom or dad lap with an extension seatbelt. No harness for take off and landing. It’s written in my manual. I had last week a customer exactly like you , saying to me , I will use the harness , no matter what. Police and he got offload.
I agree with the dangers of excessive seat belt sign illumination.
IME, the ex-CO captains are much more likely to leave the seat belt sign on excessively long, compared to their ex-UA colleagues.
That being said, as @MeanMeosh suggests, I’m not sure it’s totally fair to assess what is happening on Southwest only a week after one of their passengers was sucked out of an airplane.
While I make it a rule to never disagree with MeanMeosh about anything (super smart, so smart it’s not even funny) the previous flight to this one was on a Southwest flight into MDW. So if that is the case, 1) It’s not being followed across the board and 2) It’s less effective because passengers end up getting up anyway but no longer know when it is genuinely unsafe to do so.
“While I make it a rule to never disagree with MeanMeosh about anything (super smart, so smart it’s not even funny)…”
lol
Though I clearly failed reading comprehension this time around and ignored your point about having been on a WN flight a couple hours before. In my defense, I had been up since 7 AM Barcelona time at the time I wrote that…
Agree completely with your article.
Out of curiosity, when you say “stragglers started to head to the bathroom, knowing that the sign was either on in error or that legally, this is the one time a passenger can ignore a crew members orders and make their own judgment call”, is there really a legal out in this situation? I’ve never heard of that before.
Gary Leff comments on it here: http://bit.ly/2FpVqUl but I have heard it elsewhere as well.
The crazy stories on the web notwithstanding, from my experience, the post-9/11 greater authority of FAs is preferable to the more widespread obnoxiousness of fellow passengers that existed before then. At least now, I think some people do hold back on bad behavior out of fear of being arrested. Now, as to the seatbelt issue, I have had the same experience. But I have not bothered to ask the FA. When things are smooth, and if I really need to, I will quickly visit the facility. Particularly if the FAs are up, indicating they don’t think it is a big deal. By the way, I find that if you are in first, the FAs are much less likely to tell you to return to your seat.
As an airline pilot, but not from the USA, I’d have to admit that I’ve always been surprised at just how much of the time the sign is on, on those US airlines that I’ve flown. Also very common around the world, is the practice of having the signs on whilst the cabin crew are going about their duties.
Both practices simply teach the passengers to ignore the signs.
In the airline I fly for the signs apply to everyone. The cabin crew have one minute to be seated once they come. Weather conditions permitting, they are turned off as soon as the aircraft is clean after take off, and they come back on with the first flap selection.
Exceptional writing and I greatly appreciate the discourse you conduct with all who post here. On an errant chance I thought I might do a web search just to verify my own sanity about seemingly eternal seatbelt sign illumination. I’m overjoyed to discover it’s not just me and I just indeed might be sane! Safety is important but I also need flight crews in their entirety to understand their passengers are human. I write this as I take a relatively short 2.5 flight, but it took a full hour to taxi and finally take off. Of course, once the plane pulled back from the gate and the flight crew being aware of our extended delay made no effort to inform passengers right until the time of our takeoff. Add another 40 minutes of reaching cruising altitude and getting through some initial chop. Seatbelt light finally came off 2h22m from pushback. Maybe many of you are super human but throughout my day using the facilities is pretty routine once every 2 hours. I am always bewildered by what expectations are of humans during air travel. Communication goes a very long way and if there are pilots reading this blog, please let us know when you know how long the wait might be or even create windows where facility access is permitted and when it’s not.
Thanks!
Stumbled upon this after taking 8 Southwest flights recently. Only one of them, the shortest trip (50 minutes), did they turn off the seatbelts lights. The last flight after that was only an hour and we had to board immediately so no chance to use the restroom. I am an avid rule follower so I never got to use it and almost wet myself. The flight was just as smooth as the previous, but I think its Southwest pilots who choose not turn it off. Only one of the 8 flights we recently took was during a storm and made sense the light was never turned off. Seems more intentional than forgetful imo.
I completely agree with your article in that it backfires and makes it less safe.
I have been on many flights where they leave it on, with no explaination. Personally, I wish there would be a bit more communication from the pilots about their reasoning or how long. On some of my flights they say something like, “getting reports of some rough air for next 30 mins, so going to leave seatbelt sign on, we will try to get it off soon.” This also makes me feel more assured and like I haven’t been forgotten back here. I might have unreasonable expectations as I am also a fearful flyer.
Anyway, I have also noticed they do this a lot when the turbulence is unpredictable. They turn it off, then on, then off, then on, and finally just leave it on, no matter how smooth it gets in the future.
It’s safety. The crew will never tell you all the reasons why the seatbelt sign is on.
It is so hard for people to understand that rules are rules ?!? You can’t take pictures or videos inside the a/c , you can’t photograph the crew. It’s a crime. You can get in trouble also when you take pics in a museum , for example. What’s so hard to understand?! The seatbelt it’s on for safety reasons. I had short haul flights as crew , the seatbelt was on almost the entire flight , the crew was not even realeased from the jumpseat.
It’s not a crime.
It’s not a crime in your world. It’s the same thing when u photograph in museums , etc ( if it’s for forbidden) We called police for a “smart” passenger who was recording the safety demo. He got a fine and he’ll never fly our airline again.
You need to understand that being a flight attendant it’s a real job and people are just rude and uneducated. That’s why all crew when things like this happen they need to call police on arrival. Imagine if someone a customer comes to your job and takes pics of you or tells you how to do your job when the have no idea about it.. Rude , stupid and childish..My pax will never go into the toilet when the seatbelt sign is on. I simply don’t care..
I think you need to learn that above your corporate hierarchy, the customers are your boss. Without them, there’s no money to pay you. Treating them with respect is at the very least the second responsibility in your job description, behind likely keeping everyone safe, which as this article states can be done without being rude or dismissive to passengers.
The fact that you say you “simply don’t care” speaks to how little you understand about business. That you got so irate over someone recording a safety demo – something Southwest virtually encourages because their FAs always make it fun – to have a passenger removed, fined, and banned from the airline – candidly, if that’s how you treat a paying passenger, I wouldn’t want to fly your airline in the future, and would be happy to take my $50k of business elsewhere. There’s more than one airline on most routes.
I know way too many people who have worked as flight attendants to ever defend your ridiculous opinions. Yes, of course sometimes you run into some FA on a power trip. However, the amount of shit FA’s have to deal with compared to other customer service roles is absolutely phenomenal. Never mind the fact that in traditional customer service roles you can throw people out for antisocial behaviour. However, with a flight you really only have a very narrow window to throw out the trash. Unsurprisingly, a more hardline approach is necessary. I have flown a lot over the years and I have never once had a bad incident with an FA. I have had minor disagreements, but see I am an adult who is capable of keeping calm, not swearing, and doesn’t blame the wage slave in front of me for issues beyond their control. As such, every time I have had an issue it was rectified immediately and I got some perks thrown on top.
Side note, I honestly question the paranoia being presented in these comments. FA’s are not out to get you. Yes, obviously we have all seen the exceptional videos of people being thrown off planes. However, statistically speaking those constitute a tiny minority of incidents despite having numerous views on youtube. Think about how many flights leave each airport in the world every day and then think of how many well publicized incidents we see… well clearly something doesn’t match up!
P.S
Unless you need to get up to go to the bathroom (or move around/do a quick stroll on long haul flight) you should leave your seatbelt on at all times when flying. Just loosen it up a bunch if you want to nap. Turbulence comes out of nowhere and I hear just as many (if not more) incidents of unexpected turbulence smashing everyone up in a cabin as I do about someone getting kicked out of the cabin.
It is crazy that seat belt signs are left on when the cabin staff are comfortably strolling around the plane, serving drinks etc. and the number of people ignoring seat belt signs has risen as a result. The pilot should only put the seat belt signs on when there is a real problem and switch them off as soon as this is clear.