A United Airlines pilot faces a storm of criticism from pilots at Southwest Airlines for reporting what she deemed to be a safety violation while sitting in the jumpseat on a Southwest flight.
United Pilots Snithces On Southwest Pilots After Jump Seat Flight
There’s a certain camaraderie in the airline industry, especially among pilots and among flight attendants. Most airline employees enjoy generous pass travel privileges, allowing them to fly on standby at little to no cost. This is often not limited to their own carrier and is very helpful if they have to commute. With that context, we turn to a story first flagged by JonNYC.
When flying standby, if the passenger cabin is full a pilot from another airline can request a seat in the flight deck. While granted at the discretion of the captain, this is a request that is rarely turned down, even after the Alaska Airlines psychotic mushrooms episode.
Recently, the following reportedly occurred:
- A “junior” United Airlines first officer flew in the jump seat from San Francisco (SFO) to San Diego (SAN) on Southwest
- She noticed that the first officer was using speed brakes without flaps and recommended he add flaps
- The captain agreed, telling the first officer to reduce the brakes and add power
- The captain then deployed the flaps
- All indicators remained within normal ranges at all points of the flight (i.e. no warning lights or signals)
- Upon landing, the captain thanked the United pilot
- But the United pilot took it upon herself to call the FAA safety hotline and file an incident report against the captain and first officer
- The flight crew got the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) involved
- Now some Southwest Airlines crews are purportedly not allowing United pilots into “their” cockpit
I understand the drama going on.
It does make me wonder, though, if there was anything more that went on. Contrary to the report above, could the pilots have been initially dismissive or even hostile? Could the United pilot have felt disrespected becuase she was a woman? I am certainly not saying that is what happened, but it is at least a possibility because there is a disconnect between what is reported by the Southwest pilots and the report. Why would she possibly feel the need to go to the FAA if her concern was addressed?
She was right to speak up: as a cockpit occupant, she was part of the FAA-defined “crew” as well. If she just decided to snitch, though, after 1.) correctly pointing out a problem and 2.) the captain acknowledging the problem, correcting it, and thanking her, then I really question whether that was necessary.
Her name is out there and I will not mention it here. Frankly, it would not surprise me if even some of her own colleagues at United watch her more closely and are prepared to report her (hmm…sounds like flight attendants).
Meanwhile, the unions representing pilots at Southwest and United are communicating over the matter.
CONCLUSION
As One Mile At A Time opines, it is problematic that many pilots say that if they’re in the jump seat, they just shut up no matter what they see. That’s not helpful. But I do think pilots are not schoolyard children and reporting everything to the “teacher” when it can be correctly addressed between themselves is problematic. I’d love to hear the United pilot’s side of things, but I sense she went too far here if her concerns were taken seriously and addressed.
image: Southwest Airlines
Small TYPO in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph:
“With taht context, we turn to a story …..”
Don’t worry, I must send a TYPO note to Simple Flying once a week!!
More than just one typo. Geeze.
Yep, there’s a TYPO in the Spirit story as well. Take a look.
We all make them!!
She’s new. Clearly hasn’t had time to learn the omerta code of pilot conduct.
@Maryland … +1 . Nevertheless , I always support a female crewmember because they smile nicely .
One of the “new” pilots that are being forced into the captains seat under the latest contract ALPA agreed to with United. Knew that was a great idea!!!
Elaborate? Because what you say has no relevance to this incident. I honestly have no clue what you are implying.
She (or he? I’m confused) shouldn’t have gone to the Feds. It was noted, fixed, acknowledged and then thanked. And then it should have been left up to the Southwest crew to take any further action if they felt appropriate.
Being a snitch was far from necessary. And nobody likes a rat. Or the Feds.
United pilot was female.
Female pilots all have a grudge.
She just couldn’t keep her mouth shut, nothing unusual about that. So, what’s the deal with the speed brakes and flaps? I see airplanes using speed brakes all the time to slow down or increase a decent. But what do I know being just a piston engine guy.
The United pilot was wrong for complaining because the complaint was not material enough to cause disciplinary action or even a warning to the Southwest pilots. Does she call 9-1-1 when she sees a car going 62 mph in a 60 mph zone? Or call 9-1-1 when she sees the city bus she is on going at 62 mph but slowing to 60 mph after she asks?
I think she will be taking a Greyhound bus next time. Nobody will want her in their jumpseat.
@Santastico … any female can be in my jump seat any time . I like their companionship .
Your name should be “red flag” not “alert”
oh my I laughed out loud at this…
Junior female FO living in San Francisco…Hmmm?
Yes, we have a LOT of junior people based in SFO who live elsewhere and commute. What are you implying?
Supposedly she was traveling with her husband who was in the cabin while she was in the jumpseat. She told him she pointed out a deviation and her husband was the one to have called the FAA and now she’s catching hell for his stupidity.
There’s no jumpseat war against United pilots.
That’s an interesting twist. Was that shared in one of the pilot’s forum?
The Southwest pilot is not going to lose his job. Stop being such a big crybaby about it. Having worked in the airline industry for thirty five years, I kept on hearing from management that safety was number one, yet management often encouraged employees on the ramp to bypass standard operating procedure to get a
Flight dispatched on time. The industry needs people brave enough to speak up about safety. I believe that gender is playing a huge role in this issue. Maybe the Southwest copilot had become rude or condescending to the United pilot because she pointed out his mistake. Many men do not like being corrected by a woman. I also believe that the United pilot had every right to call the FAA hotline, but she should have considered what the consequences might be toward her. The Southwest pilot made a mistake and the Southwest captain did not even catch it as it is his job to do. She is not a snitch, but someone who has a high regard for aircraft safety. Airline employees should leave her alone and not distract her from safely flying her own aircraft.
It would be extremely petty for Southwest pilots to now not let United pilots jumpseat and remember that Southwest pilots sometimes need a ride to work too…… on United aircraft.
Wow, seriously? Sexism? Give it a rest. The story coming out is that it was a non-event. She rightly pointed out while the crew was looking for traffic that the airspeed getting low and it was immediately addressed. At the end of the flight, the crew thanked her and that was it. She told her husband who was in the back what happened, and he was the Karen who called the FAA.
Joe, didn’t I speculate that is exactly what could have happened (man did not like being corrected by women)? It is at least a possibility.
Oh BS.
All she had to do was call somebody from Professional Standards at either airline.
Then it gets addressed.
Over and done.
You’ve worked in the industry for 35 years, and haven’t heard of Professional Standards?
Say it ain’t so Joe.
I’m sorry but having flown the 737 I see no issue with using the speed brakes without using flaps. Unless the jet was so slow that they needed flaps to avoid a stall. I used speed brakes all the time with the flaps up when I had to meet a tight crossing restriction. Regardless there are better ways like ProStans to deal with anything before going official. It’s the reason it exists!
You sound extremely petty. I’m glad I never flew with you , that’s if you were even a pilot. You sound more like HR.
What a Simp !
Her name should be advertised so we don’t let her on our flights. She can walk and make phone calls to FAA. The hell. She wasn’t EVEN paying 4 that seat. It’s a privilege not a Right !
The captain didn’t even notice it? He may have turned his head for a split second and since it sounded like it wasn’t even a dangerous situation he probably would have seen it 2 seconds after she mentioned it. You sir are an idiot..
Yea whenever you file a complaint or paperwork you’re trying to get that person fired.I don’t care what job you’re on .The matter was handled if she felt somehow disrespected …so what .Get off their flight and go home but no she couldn’t wait to get on her computer to exaggerate the situation.
That’s exactly what “Karen” did was exaggerate for sure.
As they say, “no good deed goes unpunished”
I can imagine this didn’t make her much of a hero among her friends – if indeed, she still has any.
I’m surprised the junior United Airlines first officer didn’t apply the lesson Cindy received in the Brady Bunch episode about what an ugly look is to tattle tale.
Just to pick at the details, there’s nothing incorrect with using speedbrakes without Flaps. I’m sure there were more unrevealed details but if no abnormalities were flagged (speed low, close proximity to runway, whatever) then this was an opinion on pilot technique, not a safety issue. In addition, SWA pilots are generally quite proficient in the aircraft type as it is the only type flown. Their comfort levels will be different from a Junior legacy pilot (not a condemnation of experience, just a fact). My WAG is that the Captains note of appreciation was simply a general social courtesy, not a proclamation that she “saved the day.” In the end, I would be annoyed and disappointed over the report to FAA and the inane nature of the reporting pilot’s ignorance (wife, husband, whoever). This is more telling of a culture problem: like children on a playground, tatting in ignorance, an annoyance. I would not be surprised if the SWA pilots shrugged their shoulders and moved on while the union decided to make an obvious and appropriate point.
Is there a certain speed at which below that speed you should have some sort of flaps deployed for extra lift? From what I’ve read (and of course anything I’ve read could be inaccurate, this whole story reeks of possible inaccuracy), it seemed like the FO had the aircraft below that speed with no flaps and had the speed brakes deployed, thus actively slowing the plane down further.
I like the analogy above about calling the police for someone going 62 in a 60. There is a time and a place to call the feds, and that would be if you’re own ass is on the line for some flagrant violation where as a jumpseater/additional crew member in the cockpit you’d face action for witnessing something or taking part. But something like this? No.
I found this even as management at an airline that unless you don’t have a choice, contacting the union is the first step. I would even do this as a station manager… if a flight attendant was being obnoxious, I called one of their union officers (two of whom commuted out of my station). They were more worried about that than the company to be honest.
I don’t think in this case I would even have contacted the union. Given the FOQA programs and such that Southwest and ever other major 121 has, behavior like using speed brakes under inappropriate configuration will get logged by the aircraft and part of the data download anyway, and anything out of tolerance will be flagged by the safety department.
Letting a pax sit in the pilot seat on a flight attendant steer the plane? Yeah, I might have filed a report to CYA. This? Absolutely not.
What’s the proper protocol here? If she was supposed to report the incident, then I don’t feel bad for the pilots at all. If this really wasn’t a big problem, then wouldn’t the FAA investigation find that, and essentially dismiss the complaint? Pilots are a little like doctors, they like to be in charge and they don’t take criticism very well. As a passenger, I just can’t feel bad about a breach of safety being addressed.
I’m actually surprised pilots have the discretion to deny JS riders at will. I understand a business can refuse to accept customers, but giving that power to a pilot surely will result in unnecessary decisions based on emotion and ego.
@Jerry: Voicing a concern at the time to the crew on board is correct for something of this level. An FAA report requires a response. Pilots also can self-disclose minor incidents – like a mea culpa, like missed a radio call or something. Which is penalty-free as it’s more valuable getting self-disclosed data than punishment.
Denying a jumpseat rider… yes… it comes down to Captain’s discretion and permission. Especially a true jumpseater where they are riding in the flight deck. I have seen it denied before by a Captain – but welcomed them to ride in an empty passenger seat, but did not strand anybody – because of say a pilot on their initial operating experience dealing with a more challenging approach for the first time or just generally other training events where having one less distraction would be prudent. But there are also those who carry lists of anybody who ever crossed a picket line and will deny them a ride…. but thankfully there’s very few of those left.
Is this FAA hotline report or whatever it is different than an ASAP in the way that an ASAP is essentially guaranteed to be non-punitive?
“If this really wasn’t a big problem, then wouldn’t the FAA investigation find that, and essentially dismiss the complaint?”
This is somewhat similar to arguing– There’s nothing wrong with yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater because someone else will determine that there is no fire and notify everyone, thus there will be no problem.
Making a report that triggers a governmental investigation is crossing a threshold, and needs to be done with competency.
As a healthcare worker, I was once accused of stealing patient records. It was not true– I didn’t steal anything, and everything I did was part of my expected duties. I was fully cleared in the investigation, but it took several months. I was threatened with termination and even prosecution. In many instances it can be very hard to prove your innocence against certain allegations, even if the allegations are completely false.
If this is a situation where many pilots hear the story and think “You need to report that” then reporting was the right thing to do, but it doesn’t sound like that is a common reaction among pilots.
Jerry: I’m a flight instructor for a major airline. The jumpseat technically belongs to the FAA…not the airline. If the FAA is not using the jumpseat, then there is a specific protocol for all airlines’ use of the jumpseat by CAS approved jumpseat riders. OAL jumpseat riders are at the sole discretion of the captain as it should be. While I can’t say what other company’s policies are, our company…the captain retains the right to deny access to the cockpit…even to the FAA. The FAA denial is very specific in nature. I can guarantee that the FAA is going to want to know exactly WHY the denial and the captain will have to show cause. I’ve seen that happen and the FAA inspector agreed.
Jerry
Good point about it went away quickly when the FAA realized it was a non event
but the issue is it was so minor that she’s literally the only pilot in history to report this.
100% guaranteed she’s done this same thing (we all have) and nobody went to the feds on her
If she can’t differentiate between a non event and one that requires intervention she shouldn’t be in the cockpit
You don’t call the cops on someone going 58 in a 55 – even though “speeding kills”
I’ll pay $1000 for her name.
For what purpose?
Isn’t it obvious ! To deny her entry…why; Captain Discretion. She can walk & tattle tell now.
oh I’ll give you my name and address…
End of the day this is a they said they said (trying to be PC) and we only have a reporters interpretation of one side of the story. We need to remember that in situations like this there are 3 sides to the story, person 1’s take, person 2’s take and then the truth which we usually never get to completely.
I’d like to believe that there is a whole lot more to this story which was not reported on and that the further details lend to why the pilot felt it necessary to take the steps to report the issue.
And to be clear, I’m open to that possibility.
You’re open to that possibility, yet your headline seems to leave little doubt as to what you have decided happened…
What about sterile flight deck during departure and arrival? She does not work for SouthWest, she is a guest flying for free due to the generosity of airlines reciprocal agreements. She is arrogant and shameful to rat out a Crew instead of having a conversation with the working crew. United sop maybe different than SouthWest.
just as law enforcement officers had a “blue wall” prior to the era of dash am and body cam, in this era of “in flight recorder” the “mile high wall” is a thing of the past. Any pilot who puts his own career on the line to cover a basic flight procedure error is a fool. And the p.i.c. sitting in the cockpit who either witnesses the error and says nothing about it until it becomes part of an audio file is not doing his job as a p.i.c. How do junior flight personnel learn proper procedure if basic errors are not corrected at the time they first occur? I personally do not want any unnecessary conversations with the f.a.a. or n.t.s.b. investigators . Blue skies, ya all
Another entitled cunt…UA should fire her sorry ass.
This is what makes it past moderation?
Not very impressed, matt.
UA pledged to hire pilots based on gender and color of their skin. I bet UA won’t fire her. They might even parade her as a badge of excellence and diversity. Someone’s trash is someone else’s treasure.
I KNEW someone had to bring in Race in this. This has nothing to do w diversity and….the pilot was actually white just for the record. So no need to go there. Shameful.
Not a nice comment thrown in here referencing flight attendants. Please try a little more respect. I flew for 43 years and rarely saw unprofessionalism.
I love flight attendants – I have witnessed some cat fights, though. No slight on the profession, though.
You “flew” in the past tense. Respect is earned. And in the present tense that is a hard no as to whether they deserve it as a blanket statement. Some do. Many don’t. Clearly you are of the old school.
Sadly, it’s a different world now, and every day becoming less like the one you knew .
Ain’t it grand that United, under the new pilots contract with ALPA is now forcing these new hires into the narrow body captains seat?
“Sounds like flight attendants”? Don’t be a dick, Matt. Oh, and please get a proofreader.
Hugs Tammy!
Female pilots make up a tiny percentage of the pilot population but have more than their fair share of drama!
I tend to agree that the jumpseat pilot should have queried the pilots rather than call the FAA. Each airline has slightly different protocols for flying the same basic aircraft. One airline doesn’t have a “descent checklist” as does another airline. That doesn’t mean that the airline that doesn’t have a formal descent checklist is doing anything wrong. The pilots accomplish the same routine in a different manor. Going contrary to the aircraft manufacturer’s checklists requires FAA CMU POI approval. I had a new hire tell me that I’m “doing it all wrong”. He had never flown this aircraft so I called his attention to the POM & FOM and explained. He still complained. “You know, I was a captain at XXX regional carrier before coming here.” “Well, that’s great for you but you are not a captain nor an instructor now.” He went to the fleet captain to complain. When that answer didn’t satisfy him, he went to the chief pilot. A review board was convened and ALPA agreed…he was terminated after that. Explain that on your next airline interview!
When I started reading this story, I automatically assumed, just from the first few sentences ,it was a Millennial woman, probably a recent graduate of UA’s DEI flight school, thinking she is better in every way than the, no doubt, older white men flying the plane, and not bound by customary practice.
The idea that a jump seater, let alone a jump seater of another airline would stick her nose into anything other than imminent catastrophe is, or at least was, unthinkable.
Now she’s going to get UA pilots screwed for a long time and as there are more WN flights than UA flights, UA pilots need WN more than WH pilots need UA .
“When I started reading this story, I automatically assumed, just from the first few sentences ,it was a Millennial woman”
That’s quite a stretch, first few sentences told you JS was a millennial woman. Like what words specifically?
For the record the JS is over 40 and almost 10k hours, typed in 737 and 777, based on info from other forums, so not a spring chicken exactly..
I witnessed an incident on an American Airlines flight while jumpseating a number of years ago. The captain “hand flew” the plane up to the assigned altitude flicked on the altitude hold and let go of the yoke. The altitude hold did not engage and the airplane continued the climb for another 400 feet until I called out “altitude”! The captain grabbed the yoke and gently pitched over the airplane and descended back to his assigned altitude. It was all handled professionally and skillfully…..”no harm no foul”. I would never have even thought to report this breach of cockpit protocol since, in effect, I am a guest and appreciate the ride. Any commercial pilot worth his salt knows the difference between a mistake and a deliberate violation of procedures. Why did it have to be a snot nose fledgling? Let her know the wrath of the brotherhood/sisterhood.
P.S: in any airplane I ever flew extending speed brake while leading edge devices/flaps are extended is verboten or am I mistaken.
SWA allows SB thru F10.
Mornin’ Walter – Agree, we’ve all seen mistakes as jumpseaters and we’ve all made mistakes as pilots. However, in 35 years of flying, I’ve never considered narking on a fellow pilot to the FAA. I’ve made one call to Flight Standards in 35 years.
BTW – I’ve flown/fly 757, 767, 777, and 787, and speed brakes are often used with certain flap/slat settings, especially in the 787 which has a very slick wing that likes to fly. Sometimes in slam dunk situations, it is difficult to descend at the necessary descent rate without them. From Flaps 1-20, it is fine, but if you select any landing flap setting (25 or 30) and you deploy speed brakes you will get a caution alarm. (Still not a big deal IMHO). I assume that the 737 is similar, but not certain.
The correct terminology is backstabber. The person who called the feds is mentally unstable.
The conclusions drawn in this article are grotesley off base. The issue has nothing whatsoever to do with having Jumpseaters “be quiet” or not speak up. That’s absolutely their job to bring issues to the crews attention if they see something. The issue is she did not follow protocol. If a Jumpseater witnesses a safety related even that they feel should be reported her job is to contact her Jumpseat Committee and they take the report and most likely handle it with the other airlines Jumpseat Committee which will give the report to the airlines Professional Standards committee. No where in that protocol does anyone go directly to the FAA.
Furthermore, if there was actually a safety event airlines have an automatic self reporting system called FOQA and ASAP. So even without a Jumpseater in the cockpit of the aircraft ever exceeds certain parameters the exceedances get flagged and the event is investigated. Pilots would also self disclose by filing an incident report through the ASAP report. Point being is her primary role is being a set of eyes during the flight. Not take it upon herself to go directly to the FAA. That’s why no one is going to allow her on the Jumpseat for the foreseeable future. She violated everyone’s trust.
Thanks for that clarification. Agreed.
LAX 737 Capt is correct. I too Capt a 737. The inference that is being implied by some commentators is that something ‘unsafe’ must have happened or as in your article there ‘was a problem’. Actually, getting a bit slow on occasion is not uncommon. It’s not a ‘problem’, in the sense we should so concerned as to report to anyone other than the pilot flying. It’s captured and corrected. (Except in obvious cases like Asiana SFO – where they missed the obvious and had a lack of knowledge of the system they were operating). In this scenario there were several barriers to finding oneself in an unsafe (and therefore warranting additional concern) condition. Aural warnings, flashing colors on the screen, stick shaker and auto-throttle wakeup and advance to name a few. I doubt they had any of that. Like most experienced pilots my first indication is the seat of my pants. Tactile feel on the controls, accel/decel felt where you sit and subtle changes in noise and engine sound all alert you to a change in energy. I wasn’t there but if FOQA and the FAA IR produce zilch then she was WAY out of line.
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Dude you’re too late to the party, don’t be surprised when you get a call from your chief pilot or union rep to yell at you for sharing private info