While I do not think a prison sentence of up to 12 years is proportional to accidentally bringing ammo into Turks & Caicos, I don’t place primary blame on the TSA for failing to catch it…I blame the one who packed it, even inadvertently. I also note that sovereign nations…or Crown Colonies…have the right to set their own laws concerning guns and ammunition, full stop.
If You Leave Ammo In Your Carry-On Bag, Expect To Be Arrested In Turks & Caicos Or Anywhere Else
A 30-year-old Virginia man faces up to 12 years in a Carribean prison for entering Turks & Caicos with a pair of bullets in his hand baggage. He claims that it was an honest mistake and he did not know the bullets were in his bags (one bullet was found in his bag, another in his backpack).
He’s not the first to be caught with ammo in his bag: several Americans have been detained and face lengthy prison terms since a Turks & Caicos law was updated earlier this year to make the penalties for bringing firearms and ammunition
View From The Wing frames the issue as one of incredulity that the TSA missed the bullets:
What I see in this is repeated failures by TSA. They keep letting ammunition past security checkpoints. These tourists are boarding planes at U.S. airports, bringing the ammunition past the watchful eyes of the TSA. We’re spending over $10 billion annually on the agency, surrendering rights, identifying ourselves and taking off our shoes and in exchange we don’t even get security from ammunition inside of airports and on planes.
To that I say amen…what a joke the TSA remains after 20 years. We (frequent travelers) become so immune to security checkpoints by CLEAR and Pre-Check, but the entire security apparatus remains a joke, with ridiculous liquid bans but guns and ammo going undetected.
Just last week a piggish agent in San Francisco (not even TSA, but a private contractor dressed in a TSA costume) barked out to passengers to take their liquids out of their bags like they were three-year-olds who had just had an accident on the kitchen floor. This would not be tolerated in most of the civilized world.
But I won’t lose sleep over these men facing jail sentences because ignorance is generally not an excuse to disobey the law. Oh, I’d certainly give them mercy if I were judge…but I’d give no mercy to the hooligans who have vandalized college campuses in protest over the war in Gaza or for those “smash and grab” robberies that leave honest folks too afraid to go shopping and cripple once-vibrant centers for commerce.
My point: you’re responsible for 1.) knowing the laws of the country you are visiting and 2.) knowing that is in your carry-on bag.
Actions have consequences.
Matt, give this one another proofreading.
Visit ATF.gov , traveling with your weapon and ammo. By country the laws are specific. Also almost amusingly, it stresses the importance of going through your luggage, clothing and pockets. It states the importance of personal responsibility, (TSA isn’t your mommy and the State Department will not get involved). Also you will see T&C is far from the most strict. (Jamaican new law is 15 years plus fine.) Boaters in the Caribbean often would board weapons, now this would get you in a world of trouble.
@Maryland … +1 . At TLV , Israel will go through one’s luggage completely and then ask a few questions . Better cooperate at TLV .
They used to be better I think. Did you know since the Hamas attack, Israel is processing 3000 gun permits a day for private citizens , with a backlog of 260,000. At least most Israeli citizens have been trained to handle a weapon. Hopefully no child will be able to access these guns, unlike what we have experienced in the US.
There has already been an increased recklessness with government-approved firearms owners across Israel and part of Israeli-Occupied Territories. But this is to be expected given the growth of insecurity in the area plus the strength of Israel’s far right in the government and in society at large.
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/103572200
While the increased desire to be armed is a rather natural reaction to the failures of the Israeli security establishment to protect Israel’s peoples on that weekend this past October, an armed society full of insecurity is a very dangerous society for minorities as well as for family members and community acquaintances of those people with lots of guns around at home or while out and about while using the expanded gun licensing program for which Jewish Israelis are being approved in record numbers.
The State Department will get involved on request of an American locked up abroad, as there is a right to access consular services applicable in such situation too. But the US can’t (directly) change the laws of other countries and the laws of the land being visited are applicable.
GuWonder
From ATF. gov. The State Department will not get involved. This was in italics and bold caps. Perhaps you interpretation is different, but already many have been arrested, 4 from T&C, alone.
Government websites are often dumbed down to try to make the government’s life simpler for itself.
I know a thing or two about the State Department’s doings and non-doings when it comes to Americans arrested abroad. For countries covered by a certain convention, US citizens requests for consular assistance when arrested dies often get answered by assistance assistance eventually. It’s typically very limited assistance that is delivered and often effectively pushed off as a non-priority, but there is some assistance available upon request for even the most foolish of Americans arrested for extended times in places with relatively decent diplomatic relations with the US.
Yeah. They have more important things to deal with, and this is why we have attorneys. Flaunt the laws in another land; don’t expect help.
Best solution: Don’t buy a gun.
@Josh … Say they don’t buy a gun . OK , so then what will they do with their old ammo ?
Responsible disposition is a possibility. If they can’t handle that then it’s irresponsible for them to have had a gun and ammo in the first place since they evidence irresponsibility with their inability or unwillingness to dispose of the ammo in a responsible manner.
The US Government owes it to its citizens to negotiate reciprocal agreements with countries around the world that will permit US citizens to exercise their second amendment rights globally.
Rights that are geographically constrained are not truly rights.
@Sean M … Our Constitution is specific solely for the U.S.A. ( You knew that , and are pulling our leg .)
The U.S. government could obtain the release of the morons by giving ‘Turkey and Cocoa’ 3 choices : 1. release the prisoners , or 2. stopping all cruises and airlines visiting , or 3. Seal Team will take over the country , similar to Grenada . Presto : prisoners would be freed within 24 hours .
@Alert – arguably, the rights enshrined in the US constitution are “endowed by (the) Creator” and are “unalienable”. Therefore, they can be argued to apply universally rather than just within the territorial jurisdiction, and any country which recognises the United States of America as a sovereign nation accepts that these rights apply universally to the citizens of the USA, and are supreme to any local statutes to the contrary.
It is an academic discussion of course (one that I enjoyed in my college freshman US Government course), but nonetheless a point of view worth arguing.
Are you out of your mind?
You legitimately cannot be serious
You are confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. the Declaration of Independence is not law. The Bill of Rights attached to the Constitution gives us some basic rights, but all that “life, liberty” and “creator” stuff is from the Declaration of Independence.
@Sean M. I always respected your insights into African aviation. Now I am questioning. Your comments are so far off based as to be almost delusional. Are you basically saying that the rights of Americans within our country override the laws of foreign countries? Please do tell. I’m anxious to understand this more, lol.
Did someone hack your account?
Stuart
Have you completely lost your sense of humor? You must be tired.
@Maryland. Perhaps I am tired as you say. But I have long valued Sean’s insight into the industry and he strikes me as a serious and knowleageable guy. As such, excuse me if I find it rather disarming (no pun intended) that he comments something like this. If you’re correct, it’s nothing more than trolling. Which, given his industry position, is not exactly beneficial to him or others.
Rights that come from a constitution are only rights in so far as when, where and how the ruling establishment wants them to be. Some people learn that the hard way, and others naively think rights enumerated in paper are sacrosanct. As happened with Roe v Wade, so too can the Court overturn the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and decide that firearms are prohibited absent being part of a formal militia approved by a state.
And speaking of rights, Americans in the US are said to have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness absent being convicted by a court in the US. And yet we have a USG which has decided not to take the Modi government to task for India having a growing hit list of American targets whom the Indian government wants to see be killed or subject to trumped up charges.
So you’re saying the US government should topple another country’s sovereign government in the name of ammosexuality? That’s insane.
Regime change is a terrible idea, but in this case it’s flat-out bonkers. (this idea is so bonkers, it must have come from Yonkers!)
Almost no sane country on earth would agree to such a proposal. Why would any country want a to allow, anotger country citizen’s to show up in its border armed with weapons that may well be banned in that nation. Americans rights begin and end at the border. Almost no country is desperate enough for us tourism that they would agree to such a proposal.
@Brendo … Well , Brandon’s migrants from down south are bringing their guns into the U.S. , no ? Oh , I get it . Brandon is desperate for migrant tourism .
The guns in Mexico come from the US. Mexico has much stricter gun laws.
The Mexican government is currently pursuing litigation against numerous US gun manufacturers and dealers due to those companies’ reckless disregard for human life.
You, uh, might want to look up the meaning of the word “reciprocal,” there.
No such global right– Lock them up
There is no excuse for citizens having guns or ammunition. The lack of gun control in the US is a disgrace. Lock them up. For the full 12 years.
The current Administration freed an American hater drug addict that entered Russia with drugs by letting them have a world terrorist in exchange. Let’s see what they do for this parent of two young kids.
Yes, he made a big mistake but you can’t ignore that TSA is a total joke and they are basically there to bully people because they have liquids with them. They are absolutely useless and outdated and nobody seems to care. There are zero standards, they bark for barking at people that are not doing anything wrong while they let guns and ammunition go through their checks. It is an absolute disgrace and we are paying for their work.
@Santastico … There is a ‘saying’ in the Army that : if your choose 100 soldiers at random : 10 ought not be there in the first place ; 80 are simply filling positions and receiving pay ; 9 are doing most of the work ; and 1 is actually safeguarding the nation .
If that can be applied to TSA , then 9 or 10 , out of 100 , are doing the best work , and finding the contraband .
As far as ‘Turkey and Cocoa’ are concerned , the customs agent was likely doing what he was instructed : looking for weapons and ammo .
100% agree but the overall system is broken. They treat people like trash. And what I said, there are no standards. A few weeks ago I had a day trip. Left my home airport wearing my clothes and a backpack. I have Clear, TSA Pre, etc… Went through security with zero issues. On the way back, did the same. Now look at the inconsistency. I was asked to remove a light vest I was wearing. That was not the case in the morning. I went through the metal detector and it beeped. I was asked to remove my belt. Did it again and it beeped. I was asked to remove my Apple Watch. Did it again and it beeped. I was then asked to remove my shoes. Did it again and it beeped. There was basically nothing else to remove. I was taken to the side and got searched. They found nothing and I was let go. How is that for a standard? How can you trust the system? They should have a pre determined level of accuracy that all machines follow so they don’t have to bark at people all the time just because they are incompetent.
@Santastico … so if they bark at you … say to them “bark bark” , and smile at the joke . They will smile also . Problem solved .
Did someone say “bark”?
Yes, the TSA should be disbanded. I am sick and tired of security THEATRE. Either do real security or none at all, TSA falls into the latter. It was nothing more than a government growth program.
At the same time, police in the TCI should give that clown who brought the ammo a beat down for stupidity, the worst crime of them all.
@Derek
Correction: *CLOWNS – I read there are ~4 dudes locked up.
It is also a crime in the USA to attempt to pass through TSA with a firearm or ammunition. So, yeah let’s blame the TSA but he could of gone to jail before his vacation if TSA would of found it (yes I know probably rarely if a first time offense and only 2 bullets). I love how the family is blaming tsa, no personal responsibility…
Just like that idiot Brittany who took items that were illegal in Russia and then wanted to blame everyone. Of course we let her anti-american whatever she is come back after kneeling for the anthem but leave a Marine to continue to sit in a Russisn prison…
@your daddy … +1 . No one plays around at TLV … Israeli security is all business .
Putin has a different price list for different Americans. The price Putin wanted for the female basketball player arrested and prosecuted under questionable circumstances was lower than the price he wanted for the males arrested and prosecuted under questionable circumstances.
There is also the possibility that in some countries corrupt airport employees might sneak a bullet into your carry-on luggage then seek a bribe to pass security. These employees often prey on foreign elderly. Secure all pockets in your luggage.
No sympathy. Sure TSA is just horrible at doing its job, but as a gun owner, you should also be responsible for securing your gun, ammunition and associated items. If you just have loose bullets in your bag, then what does that say about you being a responsible owner and your attitude towards gun safety
I so agree.
Another aspect to consider:
An arrest has a high probability of having your Global Entry, NEXUS, or other expedited entry revoked. Another way is if a family member violates a customs regulation. With those programs, close relatives are supposed to be low risk, even if they are not applying.
A DUI arrest without a conviction is sufficient and common grounds for denial into Canada. So beware and live a straight life if your business travels or connecting flight has to go through Canada. You may someday want to have an award ticketed through Canada.
I mean yes the TSA is a hot mess, but protecting American citizens from facing legal consequences in foreign jurisdictions is not part of their job. In this case preventing people from boarding planes with live ammo in their carry-on does fall under their duties, but ultimately the responsibility for knowing and complying with the laws of a foreign country falls on the passenger going there. Many countries (such as Japan and Singapore) have extremely strict rules about bringing in prescriptions (including ADHD meds and others) and no one would suggest relying on the TSA to make sure they comply with those rules. The same burden should apply here, even if the TSA should have found the ammo for other reasons.
If you are using your hunting bag as a carry-on you should make sure you get rid of any stray ammo in there in the first place, even if it might only result in a slap on the wrist and forfeit of said ammo if you are traveling domestically and the TSA does manage to successfully carry out their duties.
Matthew, you have some seriously strange equivalences here: anti-war protesters who want to stop mass killings = someone bringing instruments of killing (ammunition) = thieves who rob stores. It’s your blog but maybe going with one topic at a time might be more cohesive.
Anti-Israel protestors who deny Israel’s right to exist? They are scum.
My point was not to draw a direct equivalency but to say that a nation has a right to punish in a manner that is outside the mainstream.
My point about the campus occupations and vandalism or the smash-and-grab cases is that I would want these people punished so severely that it would (hopefully) create a chilling effect on copycats. I assume that is what is behind the very strict punishment in Turks & Caicos for bringing bullets or firearms in. And that is not wholly unreasonable.
And Biden better watch out – I hate Trump and would never vote for him, but I’m not supporting anyone who supports these low-life scoundrels. I’m hardly alone.
I think that the students have a right to protest as long as they’re doing so on campus and not hurting anyone. As to WHAT they’re protesting about, from what I’ve read and heard it’s mostly that they want their schools to divest from companies that do business with Israel until Israel stops being an apartheid state. That’s not really the same as wanting the destruction of Israel. The irony is that pretty much everyone in the USA and most of the world for that matter want a two state solution – except the current Israeli government and a two state solution would address most of the problems.
I agree with you on harsher punishment for the smash and grab crimes. Maybe if RICO would apply then harsher penalties would make these people reconsider.
On the voting front you gotta do you. For me, I can’t even consider voting in a way that would help someone who has publicly stated that they would effectively overthrow the constitution they swore to protect., no matter whether I like the other candidate or not.
Aka. You would happily let trump win inspite of Biden supporting Israel. Just own up to your love of a dictatorship.
Do you think “Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live”?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/29/nyregion/khymani-james-columbia-suspension.html
You’re taking a single hugely abrasive extremist and suggesting that every member of the same protest he’s engaged in shares his extreme philosophy. Come on Matthew, you know better than this. Don’t let the occasional radical nut bag set the agenda when almost nobody agrees with them.
Christian, I listened to Real Time at the gym yesterday and (once again) Bill Maher sums up my thoughts so well on this matter. I know you find him abrasive, but please listen and let me know your thoughts:
https://youtu.be/V7RNOh9Muk4
Well I now have a fresh recollection on why I despise Maher. The guy is a poster boy for saccharine self-congratulation. I like the token person of color to make this even more smug. Maher is intellectually dishonest and loves his what-aboutism. In this particular video he illustrates his vast ignorance by showing that he literally has no clue why students are protesting, instead choosing to take cheap shots at people who – misguided or not – truly are trying to make the world a better place. Of course the icing on the cake is the fact that he’s a huge narcissist but calls other people the same.
Among no shortage of ironies in this video segment is that if Maher would back off on his self-congratulation he has the kernels of some points. Unfortunately he’d rather look like a pompous douchebag. Remember a couple of decades ago when he was willing to poke fun at himself rather than punching down? I kinda miss that guy.
As to the single valid point hidden in this diatribe of his is that blocking traffic is unlikely to win over the people whose lives you are interrupting, that’s correct. I never said differently. I DID say that I think students have the right to protest in any nonviolent way they want to while on campus. If they want to take over a building, fine – turn off the power and see how many of them are truly willing to sit in the darkness with dead phone batteries and no fresh food. If the students want to pitch tents on some greenway on campus to protest, so what – it doesn’t really hurt anyone.
First, I appreciate you watching it.
Second, I think you give the students far too much credit and Maher too little credit. Asking why Palestine is the pet project of these students is not unreasonable when there are so many (far worse, IMO) atrocities going on, including from Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran against their own people. His comment about where true apartheid is going on (against women) was very well-stated…as was his point about genocide, a point I’ve made over and over here and probably the #1 reason why I despise the silly idea that Israel is committing genocide.
Third, look at the comments section on LALF…I am a free-speech guy. The students are very welcome to express their grievances and unlike on LALF, have a constitutional right to do so. But as CA Governor Gavin Newsom said earlier today, “The right to free speech does not extend to inciting violence, vandalism, or lawlessness on campus.” And apparently we disagree on whether occupation is valid. Reasonable time/place/manner restrictions can be placed on speech. It’s not enough to turn off power in buildings. These people have no right to occupy lawns or buildings and should be promptly removed and expelled for doing so. The standard is not whether they hurting anyone.
Finally, I’ve always viewed Maher as pompous and agree it is not one of his good qualities. But at least he makes good points, unlike Narcissistic Agent Orange.
Here I am hoping that it is today that Trump flies to PLS with bullets in his belongings and finds out the hard way that justice is justice when no one is above the law.
Not thrilled about having to vote this way yet again, but Biden is getting my vote this time too. Trump is so dangerously anti-American and corrupt that I have to oppose a second Trump term since it will be exponentially worse and more permanently and extensively damaging than anything that has hit the country in our lifetime. I don’t want an American version of Putin’s Russia; Trump wants that.
Similar situation with RX prescriptions.
I travel with an elderly group who use some very strong pain management drugs like oxycodone. They want to carry the stuff in their weekly pill box (Sunday thru Saturday). I make them bring the RX bottles. I understand that certain Middle East countries and Singapore are very strict about medications. Only bring what you need or could be hit with “intent to distribute” as well.
@ExitRowSeat … If the elderly group is that far gone to need “very strong” medicine , perhaps they ought not be traveling so far away , especially to a region where infectious diseases are commonplace . ( eg , southeast asia , middle east , latin america , africa .)
They ought to plan a rail trip to the Canadian Rockies as an alternative to the jungles and swamps .
Absolutely EVERYONE has missed one salient point: depending on the caliber, it would be EXTREMELY easy to miss one round that had fallen out of the ammo box on a previous trip, and wedged itself into the fabric folds of a suitcase or backpack, etc. Example: .22 ammo is barely more than an inch long and scarcely more than 1/4” wide at its widest point. Having flown all over the world to compete in Olympic-style shooting events, I can’t count the number of times I’ve found straggler rounds of .22 ammo in my luggage. They fall out, they roll around, etc. I’m not sure 12 years in prison is fair and equitable, if the traveler has a previously squeaky-clean record. The whole world has become knee-jerk in response to even minor infractions regarding guns and ammunition. There are degrees of seriousness/risk at play here.
Larry,
No one has missed this. You are responsible for diligence. I really hope you understand.
Indeed. There is strict criminal liability for possession and/or transport of some kinds of things. So people need to watch out for their own self-interest when traveling because no one else is going to watch out for an individual more than they themselves or maybe some loved ones. And any gun owner who can’t get their act together about traveling really should get themselves some help to legally get out of their gun and ammo possession since they aren’t exhibiting an ability to be consistently responsible with dangerous implements.
I wish my owner would have gone to Turks & Caicos
Me too. Me too.
Expect to be because of a ridiculous police state and government that persecutes regular people for made up crimes while ignoring the real criminals. In the first place any entity that criminalizes possession of a means of self defense is doing evil. These things should be non issues. We all should vote not guilty on a jury for this stuff and if police just ignore it. Following orders is not an excuse if the orders are illegitimate.
People routinely have ammo going to the range, hunting, or just in their hiking bag in case they are attacked by wild animals. It’s easy for a few rounds to be left behind or fall into some obscure compartment within a bag that people may not check. There is no criminal intent so anyone justifying criminalization of these situations is doing evil. We have rapists and looters roaming the streets but instead this guy gets the attention. Turks has one of the highest crime rates in the world and that doesn’t get fixed persecuting innocent tourists.
You support idiots like MTG? Seriously?
What you think doesn’t matter as the law of the land this ammosexual was visiting is quite clear. If he’s not responsible enough to know where his ammo is, he deserves the punishment.
Or should he be punished scused because he’s white?
All praise to Bharat 747always! May you find victory over your bigotry!
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****Lawmakers in Turks and Caicos have amended their firearms law, removing the mandatory 12-year prison sentence that a handful of American tourists faced after allegedly bringing ammunition to the country by mistake. The change comes ahead of Oklahoma man Ryan Watson’s sentencing under the law. CBS News national correspondent Manuel Bojorquez has more.****
The country apparently doesn’t want to pay the cost to support 12 years of “free” room and board for a possibly endless bunch of clueless, criminally negligent tourists coming in from the US.
The unwitting male and female ammunition smugglers from the US can breathe a sigh of relief.