Per contract, flight attendants at United Airlines are guaranteed “horizontal” rest on longhaul flights. But when the crew rest area became inoperable ahead of a longhaul flight, United used heavy-handed threats in an attempt to convince a trio of passengers to give up their business class seats so flight attendants could rest in them.
United Airlines Tries To Use Stick Instead Of Carrot To Get Passengers To Give Up Business Class Seats For Flight Attendants…But The Carrot Is Always The Better Approach
The incident occurred on UA923 from Los Angeles (LAX) to London (LHR), operated by a Boeing 787-9 jet. For reasons that are not clear, the crew bunks (located in a little area above the passenger cabin and accessible by a hidden door that looks like a lavatory door) were not functional. Maintenance boarded the aircraft and made multiple attempts to fix the problem, but failed.
That prompted a gate agent to come onboard and address the business class cabin: three people would need to give up their seats and if no one volunteered, the entire aircraft would be deplaned.
In the post-David Dao world, you are certainly going to deplane other folks before dragging off a problematic passenger who refuses to leave. Using threats to solicit volunteers seems less productive. The offers started with $1500 future flight credit + 75k miles to downgrade to economy class with extra legroom, then rose to $2500 + $75K miles. Three volunteers agreed when the offer was raised.
But as PYOK pointed out, there was a third way…you involuntarily downgrade three passengers on safety grounds (flight cannot operate without crew rest for flight attendants) and they are due a refund of the fare difference between the higher and lower class of travel…and nothing else.
Compared to an involuntary downgrade, I like how United approached this…every carrier should start with volunteers and make every attempt to find a market-based solution to a problem of its own making (a mechanical issue).
As for the tone of the gate agents, I was not there but it does sound unprofessional and probably not productive. Then again, it was probably true…had no one volunteered, everyone would have deplaned and three folks would have lost their business class seats, probably the no-status passenger who used miles for their ticket.
The best approach: give people a compelling offer and politely warn them, if necessary, that the flight cannot depart until there are three takers.
CONCLUSION
A heavy-handed threat was used to solicit volunteers to downgrade from business class to economy class on a 10-hour United flight. Threatening to deplane pits passengers against each other, but it need not be this way. The $2500 voucher for future travel and 75K miles was more than enough to convince three people to voluntarily take the downgrade. Yes, on some flights that offer would have to be increased even higher. But it’s a better way to deal with these type of situations than a threat…it’s what “Good Leads The Way” looks like in practice.
I might have done it for cash instead of a voucher. Vouchers suck.
As a United employee working in that cabin on that flight, I would have been embarrassed seeing customers asked to give up their seats and would have gladly turned down my contractual “guarantee” of a “horizontal” rest option for these few hours….
Jm2C.
It isn’t just United’s contract that requires crew rest, crew rest is also mandated by the FAA so crew on these long haul flights can feel refreshed and alert during the critical phases of flight which landing is considered a critical phase of flight. Therefore you suggestion that you would have gladly given up crew rest on a 10 hour 35 minute flight would have ben nonstarter.
Even years ago when most of United’s widebody fleet didn’t have crew rest facilities United had modified dedicated crew rest seats in economy that had extra leg room leg and foot rest and and decent level of recline much more than any passenger in premium economy has today. This stuff is highly regulated by the FAA and if you are in fact a flight attendant you should know this. Since United no longer has appropriated crew rest seats in coach the only seat that meets FAA’s regulations are business class seats. Yes it’s in your contract but even if it wasn’t United would still have to provide those seats to comply with FAA regulations.
FAA says nothing about lay flats only as a crew rest option. That is required by the union contract.
LAX to London does not mandate a class 1 or 2 reast area. Merely a seat to sit in. In this case the premium economy would suffice that the paying passengers were forced into.
Class 3 rest facilities could be used, but they would impose a stricter limit on how long the crew can remain on duty. If the flight fits within those limits (which it likely does for LAX to London), it would still be compliant with FAA regulations.
FAA Policy on Rest Facilities:
The FAA outlines three types of in-flight rest facilities for crew members:
Class 1 Rest Facility: A bunk or equivalent in a separate sleeping area.
Class 2 Rest Facility: A seat in a business-class type configuration that fully reclines or otherwise provides some isolation for the crew member.
Class 3 Rest Facility: A seat in economy or premium economy, which may recline but does not fully lie flat and offers less isolation.
Key Considerations for Class 3:
Flight Duty Period (FDP) Limits: If the flight uses Class 3 rest facilities, the crew’s maximum allowable flight duty period is shorter than it would be with Class 1 or 2 facilities.
For example:
If a crew has access to Class 3 rest facilities, the maximum duty period is typically around 13 hours.
For Class 2 rest facilities, this extends to about 16 hours.
With Class 1 rest facilities, the duty period can be extended up to 18 hours.
Considering the crews duty period starts before the flight departs, the crews duty period starts at their report time which generally for a transoceanic flights is an 1.5 hours before departure. So their duty period is already at 12 hours before they even leave the gate, 1.5 (report time) 10 hour 30 minute (flight time) equals 12 hours. Now throw in the fact the flight left the gate an hour late and you’re already at 13 hours on duty. Class 3 rest option is already blown out the water a nonstarter because their projected duty day is 13 hours. And generally the duty period doesn’t end until 20 minutes after the flight arrives at the gate. Even though they aren’t being paid they are still on duty until every passenger if of the plane so in reality they were already looking at a 13 hour 20 minute duty period which means class 2 rest facility is required.
Wasn’t there an option to place the 3 verbally abused pax on a different carrier?
So dramatic. Nobody was verbally abused. Three passengers accepted the $2500 ETC offer, plus miles.
Myself , I would not have done . The old JAL 747 had a Tachibana cabin , a quiet cabin for business travelers to sleep . I scarfed a Tachibana cabin seat and went to sleep on a row of seats . Later in the flight , I awoke to find FAs sleeping on seat rows before and after my row . They went to the vacant seats on the aircraft quietly , without awakening the other passengers . United used too much drama , as usual . The United FAs could have simply gone to unoccupied FC seats , no ?
There obviously weren’t any unoccupied Polaris seats, hence the need for the downgrades.
Not many empty seats on most long-hauls these days.
1. They should have been offered their same cabin of service on another flight if one was available.
2. What a damning inditement of Premium Economy on United that it’s not restful enough for flight crew.
3. Should have come with a check instead of vouchers and miles.
4. Bumping people is preferable to a cancelled flight for mechanical issues, not just for the airline but for the hundreds of other passengers.
Curious as to why three crew bunks became inoperable. What the heck was going on up there?
LOLZ
It’s not 3 crew bunks. There are actually 6 bunks up there. They wouldn’t have been able to use even one of them if the entire crew bunk room became inop. Could have been one of several reasons.
What happens in the core bunks stays in the crew bunks.
Often it something like a fire suppression system fault or a recirculation fan failure that inop’s the crew rest.
This is an FAA requirement. They flight would have been cancelled. Maintenance tried to fix the crew area but could not so UAL had the option of either cancelling the flight or getting some passengers to move. And actually I believe they could have forced some passengers off the plane.
Much better to get a few passengers to move (and pay them to do so) than cancel and inconvenience all the passengers on the plane as well as incur all the cost associated with a cancelation.
Are you certain it’s an FAA requirement? I believe that pertains to pilots, not FA’s.
Not the rest aspect. But the idea that it has to be fully flat.
No, that is a union contract demand if that is the case. A lie flat on that route is not FAA rules. IT is class 3 rest area which is any open seat. Does not even need tobe in premium economy. See my other reply here with details.
No, it is NOT. LAX to London is a class 3 requirement based on the length of the flight.
FAA Policy on Rest Facilities:
The FAA outlines three types of in-flight rest facilities for crew members:
Class 1 Rest Facility: A bunk or equivalent in a separate sleeping area.
Class 2 Rest Facility: A seat in a business-class type configuration that fully reclines or otherwise provides some isolation for the crew member.
Class 3 Rest Facility: A seat in economy or premium economy, which may recline but does not fully lie flat and offers less isolation.
Key Considerations for Class 3:
Flight Duty Period (FDP) Limits: If the flight uses Class 3 rest facilities, the crew’s maximum allowable flight duty period is shorter than it would be with Class 1 or 2 facilities.
For example:
If a crew has access to Class 3 rest facilities, the maximum duty period is typically around 13 hours.
For Class 2 rest facilities, this extends to about 16 hours.
With Class 1 rest facilities, the duty period can be extended up to 18 hours.
Using Class 3 rest facilities for a flight from LAX to London is not against FAA policy, but it reduces the maximum allowable flight duty period for the crew. Many airlines opt for Class 2 for crew comfort and operational flexibility, but Class 3 remains a legal option if the flight duty period fits within the FAA’s stricter time limits.
Wait. You wouldn’t take the fare difference over 75k miles and 2500 voucher?
Seems like the fare difference in cash may be a better deal no?
On my last flight across the Atlantic on DL, the compensation for a J to Y downgrade (not Y+) was only about $900. (About 30% of full price of R/T).
The pilots and FAs are the new United first class with union negotiations. Everyone else is 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.
These mileage offers are quite interesting, and presumably they only apply to members of the carrier’s own FFP, which means that the supposed metal neutrality of the joint ventures wouldn’t even help a Senator flying on an LH-issued codeshare, let alone a *G member from TAP etc on a regular UA ticket. The advertised ‘seamless experience’ for passengers only materialises if the carrier doesn’t actually have to do any work.
So technically, it was the compensation, not the threat to boot passengers, that got the FAs their seats.
Economy on this route is usually around $1,000, while business is often $5,000 or more. Their pathetic offering of vouchers and miles isn’t enough. I wouldn’t move either unless I was full compensated for the difference and then some. Why would I voluntarily give up thousands of dollars of my money to United simply because they ask me to?
Exactly my thoughts. Where can you fly to on Polaris international business class for $2,500? United is deplorable.
@Ryan: Dead right!!
$2500 seems to be the number they go to fairly quickly, but I have in this situation insisted on being moved to another flight but but still in business class along with it. Preferably a better partner airline, though they are reluctant to do that.
With all of the devaluation, you would have to be a fool to accept miles as compensation, either full or in part.
Deplaning everyone sounds like an empty threat. Under UK rules, they would have owed everyone on board quite a bit of cash if they did that.
The three who gave up their seats should have held their ground until it got up to 10 grand, cash, because that still would have been the much cheaper option for the airline.
Not when the flight originates in the U.S. on a U.S. airline.
United just can’t shake the frameworks of its blueprint for how to run an airline, no matter how much lipstick spin and hubris it applies to its brand. It is still fundamentally a lousy airline.
United should stick to sweetening the deal, not threats! ✈️ Offering a better incentive is the way to go – everyone stays happy and the flight stays on track! #CustomerCare #Travel
Another example of a Union adding great value to the general public. Protecting bad teachers, cops, and now stealing your paid for lay flat.
There is no FAA mandate on that route for a layflat or even a premium economy seat. Only a seat for them to “rest” in.
The only requirement would be from the Union contract. Thus the Union screwing over the paying public.
FAA Policy on Rest Facilities:
The FAA outlines three types of in-flight rest facilities for crew members:
Class 1 Rest Facility: A bunk or equivalent in a separate sleeping area.
Class 2 Rest Facility: A seat in a business-class type configuration that fully reclines or otherwise provides some isolation for the crew member.
Class 3 Rest Facility: A seat in economy or premium economy, which may recline but does not fully lie flat and offers less isolation.
Key Considerations for Class 3:
Flight Duty Period (FDP) Limits: If the flight uses Class 3 rest facilities, the crew’s maximum allowable flight duty period is shorter than it would be with Class 1 or 2 facilities.
For example: If a crew has access to Class 3 rest facilities, the maximum duty period is typically around 13 hours.
For Class 2 rest facilities, this extends to about 16 hours.
With Class 1 rest facilities, the duty period can be extended up to 18 hours.
LAX to London Specifics:
A typical LAX to London flight takes about 10 to 11 hours. Including pre-flight and post-flight duties, the total duty period can approach 12-13 hours.
Class 3 rest facilities could be used, but they would impose a stricter limit on how long the crew can remain on duty. If the flight fits within those limits (which it likely does for LAX to London), it would still be compliant with FAA regulations.
Conclusion:
Using Class 3 rest facilities for a flight from LAX to London is not against FAA policy, but it reduces the maximum allowable flight duty period for the crew. Many airlines opt for Class 2 for crew comfort and operational flexibility, but Class 3 remains a legal option if the flight duty period fits within the FAA’s stricter time limits.