NPR’s Ailsa Chang spoke to United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby yesterday on vaccine mandates and forced to Kirby to go beyond his usual talking points on the matter of mandatory vaccines…for customers.
United Airlines CEO Squirms Over Mandatory Vaccines For Customers
Kirby is often asked about obligatory vaccines for air passengers and has a carefully-scripted response ready to go:
CHANG: Practically speaking, though, I mean, no matter your efforts with vaccinating your employees, they are way outnumbered by all the passengers who board your planes. Are there plans to mandate vaccinations for passengers or require proof of vaccination before they can board your planes, I mean, just in fairness to your employees?
KIRBY: I think that mandating vaccines for passengers is really a government issue. For us to do that, we would probably require some sort of government directive. We have prepared ourselves with technology to be able to upload vaccine cards and track that and implement it if the government ever chooses to go in that direction.
This is Kirby’s standard answer: leave it to the government. But Chang pushed back.
CHANG: Well, I mean, there are certain bars in this country that are mandating vaccination before people can come into the bar. Broadway is mandating vaccines. Why is it up to the government to mandate vaccines when it comes to airlines, but not in those other cases?
KIRBY: Well, we’re, you know, a federally regulated industry. And, you know, people are in terminals. They’re not just our customers. So you go through a security checkpoint, it’s to all airlines. It’s TSA employees. It’s employees at the airport. And so that’s just an environment where I don’t think it’s appropriate for us as an individual business to make that decision and really one that we would need the federal government to take the lead on.
Swing and a miss!
Chang’s question is prescient. If United can get away with vaccine mandates for it employees and effectively sideline those who hold a valid exemption, then I’m not sure what would stop it from requiring the same of passengers.
Kirby’s observation that the airline industry is highly regulated is correct, yet it really does not answer the question. Certainly, talking about how airports and security checkpoints mix customers from various airlines is an evasive answer.
Vaccines are a collective action problem, but distinguishable from airport security in that even if the government decided not to be in the airport security business, airlines would still insist upon security.
The TSA was created to streamline and coordinate airline security; it did not start something new, but grew from at least two decades of private practice.
Vaccinations in order to travel are commonplace for immunizations like yellow fever or small pox. While Kirby’s right that it theoretically would make sense to have a uniform policy, I’m not sure there is anything stopping an airline from introducing one, except for the fact that it would be very bad for business.
And that’s the elephant in the room. Kirby may not admit it, but he doesn’t want a vaccine mandate because it would make 1/3 of Americans ineligible to fly on United.
Why then the employee mandate? Because he thinks it will be good for business and can furlough or fire those employees who do not comply, which also helps preserve cash in the slower autumn and winter months.
CONCLUSION
I appreciate that Chang forced Kirby off script. His diplomatic “leave it to the government” approach, however, does not account for what I imagine is his primary concern: a vaccine mandate would be very bad for business.
You can listen to the full interview here:
image: Scott Kirby / Instagram
Good piece, though in terms of whether it is bad for business that cuts both ways. I have not flown since Feb 2020 and a big part of why I won’t is bc I don’t trust other passengers to be vaccinated and vigilant about masks. I would feel much better about flying and likely would do it if I knew all other passengers were vaccinated. Vaccinated folks are also less likely to cause a stink about masks (I’ve seen too many videos). So by not having a vax mandate the airlines are losing a lot of business now, including mine. W a mandate they would lose some passengers and gain others. I would not assume the losses would be greater than the gains either, and they would likely have fewer unruly incidents enforcing masks if they don’t serve anti-vaxxers–and that would surely be a win.
On the flip side of that argument, I am vaccinated but I fly less because of the mask mandate. I’m not saying I wouldn’t wear one, but I want the ability, because I am vaccinated, to slip it off for a few hours or leave it off while I eat, not having to slip it down between bites and sips.
@Jeff, Do you trust vaccination or not? If you are vaccinated, how does it matter if others are vaccinated or not. If you consider you will be in danger because others are not vaccinated then you are not believing in the vaccine. Do you believe in science or just believing whatever politicians say?
I’m vaccinated even though I know vaccine is not going to stop the spread 100%. Also I wear mask whenever I’m around with those I don’t know. I believe in science and based on the studies I think this virus is here to stay for a long time. Having said all this, I don’t care if others are vaccinated or not as it cannot affect those who take care of themselves with vaccination, mask and their fate.
By your logic then why bother with a mask if you are vaccinated? Do you believe in science?
Good grief. You got vaccinated and still live like you have not. What was the point? Quit worrying about everyone else.
Do you realize that the vaccine does not protect you from being infected? Do you realize that vaccinated people contract and spread the virus? Do you realize that the vaccines main protection is supposed to make the symptoms more mild? I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.
Check that, Benjamin Franklin said that lol!
That is NOT what the data says. You are repeating a talking point from LAST YEAR
NYT in their daily newsletter released the actual data. Your daily chance of a breakthrough infection if vaccinated is at least 5,000 to 1, and may actually be closer to 10,000 to 1. In other words, a very statistically improbable event. Not impossible, but extremely improbable
Since you believe things with a very low probability come true, I suggest you go gamble your life savings in Vegas. Much better odds of making a profit than there are of you getting a breakthrough infection
“Your daily chance of a breakthrough infection if vaccinated is at least 5,000 to 1, and may actually be closer to 10,000 to 1”. Where are you getting your numbers from? My experience has been in contradiction to your claims. During this past June, I attended a small dinner party at the home of a friend. There were eight people there, all fully vaccinated. A few days after the party, I received a phone call from the spouse of our host saying that they were both COVID positive and that we should get tested. My wife and I waited a couple of days and went to a local hospital for the tests. I was COVID positive, my wife was negative. The folks at the hospital recognized that the disease had infected my lungs and admitted me. Within a couple of days, I was moved to the ICU where I received treatments like heated oxygen and Remdesivir. Fortunately, after 8 days, they were able to send me home. My friend, the party host, didn’t fare as well. He had pre-existing heart disease and diabetes and was also hospitalized. They soon placed him on a respirator and he died several days later. In the two months since I was discharged, I have come across several other people who told me that they too had acquired COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated. Breakthrough infections are likely more common than your numbers would indicate.
If you, your host and your host’s wife were all vaccinated, then you were 3 out of approximately 32K breakthrough infections. Thank you for your anecdote but it doesn’t even come close to refuting the data. Seriously, can we get a basic statics course for the commenters here, Matthew?
Most people’s “masks” are nothing more than a t shirt over their mouth. They are useless. I flew international recently and everyone on board was supposedly either vaccinated or had a negative test result. Yet everyone still had to wear masks the entire 12 hours. My question is why? If they start mandating vaccinations, the masks need to go away.
I’m all for a passenger vaccine mandate. Let’s pick November 13th – the run up to the Thanksgiving rush. That gives folks 60 days to get their two shots.
Mandate it today.
Or they just won’t fly. I’m all for requiring vaccines to fly if they can guarantee the worthless mask mandate goes away. I’m personally sick of wearing my fake bead mask that gets me dirty looks and thumbs up on every flight. Of course fares will drop for a while until airlines start filing for bankruptcy.
Make sure you use those FF miles because they can be made worthless in a bankruptcy hearing. But all good if you don’t have to worry if the guy seating next to you in a mask is vaccinated or not since you are concerned about the vaccine that protects you.
To following is intentionally provocative: are you “all for” abortion? I absolutely recognize both are not equivalent or have same collective impact consideration but on visceral level being “all for” telling other people what to do with their body is a pretty bold statement. Much like reproductive health considerations, the proper place for the decision sits with institutions reflecting some semblance of consensus opinion. Regulation or laws (nothing stopping Biden and crew from passing actual laws) applied to everyone. That we are kicking the can down to companies and people that are “all for” deciding how 330M people should live is an exercise in futility. Feels good but fails to accomplish much. Kind of thinking that has led to US being global laughingstock of COVID management.
What would a vaccine mandate really accomplish? Does it guarantee no one gets Covid? Does it guarantee no one spreads Covid? Does it guarantee everyone is safe? Absolutely not. The vaccine is a reasonable precaution for those who feel they want to potentially protect themselves from a stronger case of Covid. For them, hopefully, it helps.
But to mandate the use of semi-effective medical treatment because it is the cool cause of the day is ridiculous and barbaric.
You’re a sick puppy. Please take up history as a hobby. Learn a little about the world and the past before you advocate for complete control over a population. You’re opinions are shared by some of the worst people that ever lived.
This is live and let’s fly by matthew Klint. 99% here including matthew have zero concept of history or the valid points you bring up.
Should implement a vaccine mandate and ditch the mask mandate.
The vaccine mandate cuts down on spread far more than a mask mandate does
I agree on the “cuts-both-ways” argument. On one hand, there are a significant number of people who wouldn’t be eligible (or who might refuse on principle) to fly United if there was a vax mandate. On the other hand, A vax mandate/mask optional (assuming of course the government allowed it) policy would probably be a huge draw for business travelers and other frequent fliers who have a very high vaccination rate.
There are a lot of vaccinated people sitting out air travel (either completely or greatly reduced) due to masks – far more than the airlines or media will publicly acknowledge. With the right spin (sorry, marketing campaign) this could be a winner for UA. After all, what better way to appeal to both vaccinated anti-maskers as well those with Covid paranoia?
For anyone unwilling to do business travel due to requirement to wear a mask for a few hours, you are kind of a sorry excuse for and employee and should apologize to your co-workers before turning in your resignation. There are health reasons to consider avoiding travel. Productivity considerations, sure. If wearing a mask for a few hours is the most stressful part of your job, you are likely completely expendable deadweight. Masks are an issue for leisure travel but not a credible deterrent to businesses.
The whole issue is whether they can do it legally. Not sure why he didn’t just say that. Specifically, they would be asking whether they can discriminate re: access to a channel of interstate commerce. The legal question would be whether that discrimination is permissible even against people who have religious objections or legitimate medical exemptions. Although only a small set of people, any one of them could try to sue the airline for big money. The problem is, an airline is not the government, i.e., it lacks the expertise of a CDC or FDA and no matter how many experts of its own that it hires to justify its position, that doesn’t mean anything when Congress has specifically prohibited discrimination against these small groups and has not authorized the airlines (yet) to act to the contrary. So he needs the federal government to move first and bless a mandate, rather than trying to craft his own, getting sued, and having to pay out shareholder cash in a settlement or judgment. Yes there probably would be sizable gains from people who prefer to fly an airline with a mandate, but his concern is those gains not going into his and his shareholders’ pockets, but instead to litigious persons.
Stop being so rationale.
Let’s ponder whether it meets the ends means test?
They can absolutely do it legally. Unvaccinated is not a protected class under the ACAA so it would simply be subject to rational basis scrutiny. There is no court in the country that would say not transmitting a potentially fatal disease is not a reasonable outcome and requiring a vaccination is not a rational basis to achieve that goal. It is actually a much easier case than requiring employees to be vaccinated because the employee-employer relationship is much more tightly regulated than the customer relationship. United just doesn’t want to eat the adverse publicity that accompanies it.
If there was a vaccine mandate, I reckon UA would have to cut all those spiffy new flights to RSW.
wow….20 years to the day.
The Republicans created the mass hysteria / surveillance state.
Now, the Democrats have weaponized it against ever citizen.
—
Whatever misery comes for us all next – all us citizens surely deserve it for not fighting tyranny years 20 years ago.
Now… it’s POPULAR.
Incredible.
I think this is the end gang.
If Delta required Vax, UAL would, next day. But he’s already out on a limb, he’s not “yet” willing to go further.
50/50 whether it gets that far or not.
Continental Banned Smoking on flight well before the FAA did. (if they ever did)
Lol ok bub. Yes. Tyranny. The end!
For all this talk about vaccine requirements helping or hurting, why not pilot a few “Vaccine required” flights. Maybe 2 a day on hub routes to test it out, one in the morning and one in the evening. Leave the rest of the schedule as-is and see what happens. Does it bring frequent fliers back out of the woodwork who haven’t been traveling and now feel safe (or whose companies will lax their travel policies to permit some of this travel)? I for one would go out of my way (i.e. adjust my schedule) to be on a flight where vaccines were required, especially if it meant masks could be optional or less rigidly enforced (i.e. between bites).
LOL! The way the country is right now, the media will scream that UA is mandating vaccines and masks on all their flights.
All airlines in Australia are mandating vaccinations to fly (or at least Qantas is)… And about 90% of the population supports the policy …
His answer wasn’t off script. It makes sense. What doesn’t make sense is calling it evasive. Why? It’s a private company. You could easily argue the same point in a variety of ways..i.e. “Why don’t airports require vaccines for people to come into the airport first?”
That would solve the problem right? For all airlines. Private companies taking initiatives on people it employs is different than private companies that provide a service to customers. Don’t like it, employees can work elsewhere. It also doesn’t impose a requirement for those customers dumb enough not to get vaccinated.
Matthew,
Interesting piece. What are all the other airlines doing now? Has Delta blocked the middle seat again? What are the statistics of catching CIVID on the plane with the APUs pulling the air through the filters the entire time?
A little more work and this would be journalistic and not a cheap hit piece.
Besides the notion of punting the issue back to the government, the airlines also want as many seats as possible filled. They hated the open middle seat approach earlier in the pandemic. With everyone wearing a mask they cane pack’em in again.
If China gave you an STD, would you get vaccinated? WHAT I WANT TO KNOW, WILL UNITED EXTEND FLIGHT CREDITS PAST TWO YEARS? I DON’T WANT TO GO TO FLORIDA TEN TIMES IN THE NEXT SIX MONTHS. I WANT TO GO TO UNITED KINGDOM WHEN I CAN GO WITH OUT TESTING OR QUARANTINE. YES I AM VACCINATED.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-II/subchapter-D/part-382/subpart-B/section-382.21
Read through this eCFR, it explains his response in part. It would be a legal landmine for United to implement a vaccine mandate on its own, especially when there is a mask mandate still in place.
Pesky law getting in the way of Democrats again.
If I knew everyone on the plane was vaccinated and so not need a mask on board I would fly United in a heartbeat.
everything said in article are my arguments against UA ceo mandated vaccines for employees but offering no counter protection from the public for employees no plexi-glass close contact engagement with customers being encouraged at all times sad undertakings for business as usual
It makes no sense to mandate vaccines for employees or passengers. If the vaccine works, then the vaccinated are safe. The CDC admits that infected vaccinated individuals shed virus particles at the same rate as the unvaccinated, so it seems to me that the unvaccinated are the only ones at risk, and that is a health decision they must make. No company or government should be forcing health choices on individuals. If the vaccine doesn’t make one safe, then again, why mandate it?
Exactly.
Small Pox and Yellow Fever are mandatory to fly? I doubt if hardly any Americans under 50 have taken the Small Pox vaccine.
Besides if UA required COVID vax, huge numbers of flyers would go elsewhere and UA would simply go bankrupt again.