The Association of Flight Attendants (AFA), the union representing United flight attendants, has reached a deal with United that will preserve most jobs even if Congress does not fund a payroll support extension. But the agreement comes at the expense of its most junior members, who must be wondering today why the union has a different definition of “solidarity” than they do.
United Strikes Deal With Flight Attendants
Without getting too technical, United and the AFA reached a deal over the weekend in which all but the 5,500 most junior flight attendants will have a chance to join a new Involuntary Furlough Mitigation Program (IVFMP). This option will replace the potential for being involuntarily furloughed. Flight attendants participating in this program will be awarded a “no activity line” (NAL) which means they will remain employed but without work. Even so, they will continue to accrue seniority, enjoy non-rev benefits, keep their healthcare and dental coverage, and continue to build retirement benefits.
But what about those 5,500 most junior members (those with approximate seniority dates after August 2015)? Since they have not even been offered a voluntary separation package, they will likely face involuntary furloughs.
Many of these junior flight attendants feel like the union that was supposed to protect them, the union that has stressed “solidarity” throughout the pandemic, has quietly sold them out. In fact, the agreement was made under secrecy, with union representatives from many flight attendant domiciles voting against sharing negotiation details with their members.
Kaitlin White, the president of the local union chapter representing San Francisco-based flight attendants, defended the move this way in a letter to flight attendants:
“To be clear, I do support the [agreement] because it saves 6058 flight attendants from involuntary furlough with 1203 of those Flight Attendants being members of our local council. My ultimate goal and that of my colleagues on the United MEC is to protect all 11,558 Members including the remaining 279 SFO Flight Attendants subject to involuntary furlough. However, it has become clear to me after evaluating all of the information, without an extension of the CARES Act through the Payroll Support Package (PSP), the company simply cannot financial continue to keep all 24,359 Flight Attendants on the payroll as a result of the divesting impact of the pandemic. The company has determined it must draw a line somewhere and, based on their evaluation of financial information, they believe they must do that by involuntarily fulough the most junior 5,500.”
Translation: Yep, we’re going to sacrifice our younger members to save our more senior members. Too bad, so sad.
Did the AFA simply accept United’s self-evaluation? How was the number of 5,550 arrived at?
Now that action itself may be reasonable. After all, better to save some flight attendants than none at all. But I can certainly sympathize with those 5,500 flight attendants today who feel like their union has preached “solidarity” while hanging them out to dry. Are junior flight attendants simply pawns to be traded?
For those flight attendants, perhaps this is a wake-up call that the union really doesn’t have their backs and never did.
CONCLUSION
If Congress passes an extension to its payroll support program, this program will not go into effect. I still expect some sort of extension considering CARES Act funding expires only a month prior to the election. But for junior flight attendants, the idea that their union espouses an “all for one, one for all” mentality is simply not true. The AFA will always protect its senior members, even if directly at the expense of its junior members.
WOW… you have no idea what is happening behind he scenes as to the why’s and how’s, and how things’ are changing constantly. IVF is not surprise as it has been warned for many months now. These f/a’s are given the option to work a max of 35 hrs per month, as opposed to being IVF… Just another jab to bash United.
I actually have a very good idea. And this is not a jab at United, it is a jab at the AFA. United is doing what it feels is necessary for survival. The IVFMP is a generous package and a victory for those who get it as opposed to an IVF. This article is about the junior members of the AFA who were sacrificed to achieve it.
No, actually you don’t have any idea and your “expertise” is anything but and severely lacking at best.
We EARN our seniority, so there isn’t a single being that should be shocked or surprised over this outcome.
The only reason United, and our useless union have hatched out this pathetic plan is to keep thousands of us home and ready on whim.
There will never be enough hours being dropped to achieve 35 hours of flying and our duty rigs would further inhibit 35 hours.
What they’re trying to do is NOT pay out upwards in hundreds of millions of FURLOUGH PAY and millions more in benefits.
I’ll gladly accept my 24,000.00 in furlough pay, unemployment, and remain home safe and healthy.
The last thing I’ll be doing is flying and dealing with being threatened with termination for not wearing a mask how they interpret policy.
And add on that AFA has stolen the pay seniority accrual while in the IVFMP. My wife will lose $17,500 over the next FIVE years because she will not accrue pay seniority. Multiply that by thousands of UA FAs and what you have is a massive pay cut for FAs who take this GUN TO THE HEAD PROGRAM.
Contact a labor Attorney. The union can’t have a vote without ALL members giving the opportunity to voice and vote. If your a paying member in good standing, they can’t conduct a offer as stated by the President of the local in San Francisco
I don’t feel like you know what you are talking about.
As stated above, it is better to save some form furlough than none at all.
Otherwise all might be furloughed.
No one is throwing anyone under the bus.
Everything in the airline industry is done by seniority.
Everything.
The airlines are in such poor shape, they could not possibly keep all employees active.
Seems every airline over hired,
I was part of that department for a bit, and we questioned why.
One would have to be dim not to read this exactly as what it is : an AFA busting op-ed piece, designed to culpabilise the Union and drive a wedge among the membership. It won’t work. The company had initially announced up to 15,000+ involuntary furloughs due to an unforseen global pandemic that has affected its ability to meet its payroll obligations, barring an extension of the CARES act. The Union managed to save an extra 6000+ flight attendants from losing their health care insurance and benefits!! It’s deeply regrettable that some members are facing involuntary furloughs, as the company itself stated would happen without a CARES extension. 5,500 involuntary layoffs, while certainly not ideal, is absolutely less painful than 12,000 or 15,000 involuntary furloughs. It’s not a secret that certain members and elements, resentful of the AFA, are using this as a tool to try agitate and sow seeds of mistrust. It won’t work – we stand United in solidarity and see through these obvious attempts at division.
Sure Jon…dream on.
Jon, the union drive the wedge itself when it agreed to something that can have flight attendants get recalled OUT of seniority order!!!
Quite obviously you have a seat in the lifeboat. Screw the younger members even if they paid for a seat ( union dues), let ‘me drown! Your a real class act.
How is this even legal is my question???!!! So all these lower seniority F.A.s who pay monthly dues have no representation and no vote but their money is still stolen form them ba union that refuses to even try and protect their any of their interests? Shame shame on you dirty dogs!
“Less painful”? Ask a member of the 5500 if it’s less painful!
As a united FA in the 5,500 I’d like to say we were f*cked and never got a chance to vote on anything. But I am happy for the senior FA’s.
Nice way to defend your post, Matthew Klimt. Jon is 100% correct.
Seniority is the way nearly everything is determined in a flight attendant’s career, and one of the first things you learn once you get hired . So, while unfortunate, the junior UA f/as knew when the reality of the pandemic began to hit our industry, that furloughs were definitely coming, and the most junior were the most vulnerable. This is the nature of the job, nobody was blindsided by the news, and it certainly isn’t the fault of AFA.
What you’ve written here is anti union propaganda, pure and simple.
Everyone one of these airline blogs, written by the guys, who we hear from every single flight we work : “I’ll bet I fly more than you do.” Yeah, no one’s ever used that line before, ‘sigh.
No facts to be found in this blog post. Buh-bye.
Don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you!
Jon, Unions ruin everything. They are anquidated and ran by crooked people. We pay into it out of our checks each month and all they do is deliver BS, there are no benefits to them for anyone. They do not work for us, we are NOT united. Most idustries have completely done away with Unions. Look at Delta FA’s they are doing it without the AFA. We do NOT need them. They need to be in history books not a voice for only half of an employee group. Unions are a scam.
If it weren’t for the Association of Flight Attendants Union, I would not have the long career that I do. It fought so that I could fly after I turned 20/something, it fought so I could get married, it fought so I could have children, it fought so my weight shouldn’t define whether or not I have a job! It fought for holiday pay so when I’m away from home on Christmas, I am compensated. Our Union has done important work.
As far as the furlough, either 13,000 plus flight attendants would be without a job, but under the side letter only 5,500 will. When I was furloughed for 3 years in 1980, I wish there was a side letter that would have saved me!
You don’t know what went on behind closed doors…
Wow I wish I had the luxury that your seniority is giving you. Due to your anti mask sentiment and displeasure with the offer to keep your job and benefits, I hope you take a voluntary furlough. I am one of the 5500 and would love to be offered a line, flying or not. Moreso, I would be incredibly grateful to keep health benefits in the midst of a global pandemic. Incredibly disappointed by my union and my flying partners with the “too bad so sad” mentality.
Grow up-
It’s typical for service worker contracts to reduce employment of junior staff before senior members are affected. Especially under railway labor act contracts, seniority is key. If you read contracts for pilots and grounds staff as well as railroad employees you’ll see this to be the case and signing on to UA or most any other transportation job-these members had the chance to read the contract and understand that this would be the case in this horrific scenario.
Maria, I knew I was facing a furlough situation and the tendency for turbulence in this industry. My entire family has been in aviation. I am a grown up, thank you. Being condescending towards junior people is only fueling the animosity between junior and senior flight attendants. I’m not looking for a handout… By the grace of God I have another job I’m hustling to make work so I can just barely afford my healthcare. But I’m saddened how the negotiation went & feel as though the new mitigation program pushes the 5500 further away from a callback without an opportunity to get even a sliver of what others were offered. Unprecedented times for sure. I respect the senior flight attendants who have been through hell before. Can’t we learn from those situations rather than say the next junior group deserves whatever happens to them too?
Hard for me to feel sorry ! My jobs ends September 30 as a regional for United . We are closing no talks , no union helped we are just over . No coming back . A very smaller airline with cheaper crews are taking over . United is ending us . Express Jet was probably the most professional company . We flew for Continental . Another airline that loved their customers . Oh well I’m moving on after 13 years . Sorry for all that will loose their job .
I’m so sorry Janet, I heard abt ExpressJet. I was based in Chi for awhile the guy who owned my CP was an ExpressJet Captain & we had a few FAs from there. He transferred to United as a 777 FO in 2018. He’s definitely furloughed, his crashpads were filled with reserves. So he’ll get hit on both ends. Again I’m so sorry. This industry has always been fluid and that’s what I always tell new hires. You have to have another iron in the fire. Hoping things work out for you.
Maria, yeah well some of these “senior mommas” need to give it up. Noone wants to be served in the air by an old hag. Can someof you guys even open the exit doors. How about you guys get furloughed and let the younger ones get a shot. Let the high seniority people do training or something.
Hey “oldbatsgotogo” You can kiss my old a$$. I took 6 months off to give you a chance to continue working. I’ve been slinging that door, that suitcase, those pax bags and food trays probably longer than you’re entitled ass has been alive. It’s people like you that give the 5500 a bad name. I may just hang around another 10 years just to make sure your return gets delayed even longer.
Thank you Mr. Klint for shining a light on this.
Don’t fall for the propaganda, there is always two sides to every story
I’m trying to understand why United acting in a certain way is just doing what it feels necessary and therefore acceptable while the union likewise doing what it feels is necessary is wrong. My problems with this are the secrecy of the proceedings by both the union and United and the lack of a vote between alternatives by membership.
Bottom line is if everyone could remember what it was like when they first started and if everyone could give up something for the good of younger flight attendants as well as the company itself , then no one group would have to
LOSE everything!
All major airline employees ONLY care about themselves and their pockets books. As a senior FA at another airline it sickens me how little regard is taken for fellow employees. Why can we not sacrifice a little to save a lot instead save a little and sacrifice a lot?
On another note Unions in general are ruining the airlines. We pay every month and recieve very little benefit from them. Unions are anquidated and uneeded, all they do is drive up operation costs for airlines. We can recieve fair pay and and condituons by choocing where we wish to work.
That being said laying off thousands of people and destroying regional airlines with no hopes of people finding work in another airline settung is cold and heartless. All we need to do is sacrfice for a little time until travel picks back up. These peoples lives are being ruuned for a long periods of time, when we could just help for a little while. #unitedairlines Save peoples jobs and our regional partners. Let’s all actually work together to save us as a whole.!!!
AMEN Kathleen! The problem is that many senior FA’s don’t care and wouldn’t give up anything even if it was their own family member facing furlough.
Oh and if this is the only way our union had to save the most amount of jobs, how is it that Delta (without a union) and Southwest were able to present programs that saved nearly all their FA’s from Involuntary Furlough?
We need better representation!
Wow. What a ridiculous take. This program would save 10,000 jobs. Should they say no thanks and let the company furlough 16,000 instead since they can’t save everyone? Should they furlough from the top? Or are you just anti-union and it’s a hit piece on organized labor?
How does it save 10,000 jobs when these people on NAL are sitting at home and waiting for the company to tell them when it wants them to work??
It could be minimal hours as well.
Yeah I’m not sure if having a job that won’t pay is actually saving those on the new program if they won’t have hours but you best believe they’ll still be expected to pay those union dues!! Ha
Correct! Those junior members that would’ve been Involuntarily Furlough had it not been for this last minute deal, manu of them are current AFA office holders like Ms. White who voted just to save herself, furloughs are for the little people, not her. FYI, I’m in my 25th year, so I was never in danger of being furloughed.
Hi Ruben, you are mistaken. The bottom 5,500 are not able to bid for this program as they have been cut out. This program DOES NOT save our jobs. 5,500 of us are cut out and I would like to encourage you to talk with the peers at your seniority to help them understand this. Thank you again and I hope you are well!
I think everyone deserves a vote…I have no memory of the union not allowing a vote of all members and the possibility of going back to renegotiate in a way that protects all F/As – it’s just not like the union to say ok buhbye to the 5500-this could work with shared lines/less hours and also offering incentives to all to retire if they want to even if they are jr. -I am retired but after flying for 42 years this is truly not the AFA I was so proud to be part of. But then retirees at United now have in common the same treatment as the 5500 only this was delivered to them by their union!!! I was truly proud when my granddaughter chose to work for United-I only wish she were not a part of the lower level. I would still feel the same way even if she were not related. I think it’s terrible they did not fight for all.
Do you understand that with the senior FA’s taking the voluntary furlough that more junior FA’s will be keeping their jobs to fly the scheduled flights that these others would have flown?? This would have been a blood bath had a plan like this not been negotiated In the airline biz it has always been about seniority and every single FA knows that from day one As for those that do not understand how essential a Union is needed especially in this industry has never flown a 6-day 4-5 leg per day see America pattern with minimum rest on every layover You don’t understand the industry so start asking better questions before you throw your shade
If you’ve been around 25 years, Ruben…
You should know better than to have that understanding of the situation… although that word doesn’t really apply in this case… because obviously you don’t understand!
Many of the 6,500 Flight Attendants who would have been furloughed if not for the IVFMP are AFA Officers…
That’s a whole hell of a lot of AFA officers!
And… Ms White voted for it only to save herself!
Get real, Ruben! And wipe that smirk off your face!
But hey… you can always use that good old Flight Attendant phrase as an excuse for saying something so stupid…
“Oooops! Pressurized once too often!”
Just imagine what you’ll be like in another 25 years… if you can make it that far!
You have no dog in this fight, so this is really none of your business. Stay in your lane…
I just hope United can just decide for it self to protect the younger FA’s since they can provide better service anyway. Everytime I fly these old FA’s are lack of service and have more hourly rate compare to younger ones. The younger ones are still starting to build their lives. What happened to their 30 to 40 yrs of flying can they can not find another job.pr built their life yet with that pay they are just thinking about theirselves anyway. Only US airlines are based on seniority also while other airlines they force to retire these people to get equal opportunities for everyone, and if they want to save money get rid of the top out pay people who just bully other FA’s and not making passengers with the exceptional service they deserve. They need to take a break they look too exhausted. They are comparing their 9/11 furlough (it’s tragic we all knew that) wake up people the economy is different now it’s Global Pandemic they have to live in the futur not comparing it instead use your voice to uplift one another not for yourself only. Everyone is paying the same amount of money to their union.
Your remarks are offensive and ageist. There are exceptional performers across all age ranges in every work group and in every industry. Your ageist prejudice clearly shows in your post and all of us would be better served if you kept your opinion to yourself, please.
As a 34 year FA I find your comment ridiculous Obviously you have never flown with professionals. Furthernore we earned our seniority and though I hate to see people lose their jobs, thats just the way it works.
Having been a crew trainer for many years, both in Europe, and the US, I will simply say this: Tenure is bullshit. The set amount of time you have in a company does not reflect your work ethic, nor your ability, nor your passion. . I’m not at risk for losing my job at United, and whilst that brings comfort, it shouldnt be that way.
But then again, I dont have that backwards, tenure means I’m god mentality,
And there are many, many younger FA’s that run rings around tenured staff in both work ethic, and more importantly attitude.
John, People losing jobs does NOT have to be that way. We could agree to all scarifice paycuts to save these peoples jobs!! I realize its been the status quo but it does not have to be anymore we can take the burden equally. Job share, cut backs, etc. We can work together to save us all.
Exactly, this blogger is posting HIS take on it without taking anyone else’s experience into consideration.
The forum is open Candace. You’re welcome to share you experiences and considerations, not just your tired and trite attacks…
Your “that’s just the way things are” argument is not very persuasive.
Sadly a very truthful article. Let us watch to see what the Union does to protect all of its members second time around. April 1st…stay tuned. We all do the same job and we all pay the same dues. Failure to Represent ALL of its members should not be an option. Thank You For Reporting The Facts.
Sincerely,
One of the forgotten 5,500
I’m curious how this is any different from any other large service corporation? If a huge restaurant chain had to lay off employees to save the corporation they would do the same. ” Last to hire, first to fire”… Would it be more fair to lay off FA’s that have dedicated their lives to the airline over 30 years? Are you saying now senior employees aren’t more valuable? If my plane was making an emergency landing you can bet I would hope their was a senior FA on board! It’s sad so many had to be let go, but I have flown 4 times during this pandemic and the flights were at maybe 20% capacity. I was wondering to myself how they can even afford to pay for the fuel for the trip! When you are in a service industry, your job security is based on customers paying for your service.
This is how it has always been! This is a Seniority based job, always has been. I was hired in 1988. After 911 the same thing happened! This is not a new concept. I am 61 and do not want to retire
We lost are pensions in 2013 . I am trying to add more to my 401K and investment to retire with money that will care me to death! So because I am “OLD” as you say! I should just retire. No I say not. I was divorced in 2017 and my son is grown and on his own! I am on my own! I have to make sure I will not be on the streets pushing a shopping cart. You and the other travel writers need to stop bashing the SR FA. I guess maybe you were 12 when 911 happened. No more said.
Matthew, this article ignores any mention of early retirement/buyout packages. I believe they are an integral part of determining how many employees get furloughed. I don’t know anything about United’s retirement offer but I’m betting it was significantly less than Delta’s. Delta managed to get over 17,000 employees to accept early retirement/voluntary leave buyouts. That’s nearly a quarter of the workforce. We may still be facing furloughs, but the WARN act notice deadline has already passed, so it’s still wait and see. And before you say it, yes I know I’m comparing a non-union shop to a union shop. Do you think for a minute Delta would be trying nearly as hard to retain it’s staff if our industry wasn’t organized and they weren’t already facing a major attempt by the cabin crew workforce to join AFA?
Unfortunately, Matthew…
That was a really, really, lame excuse of a response… which in fact DOES show you have no real idea about the situation… but rather… that your interest is to simply create confusion and division amongst AFA members, and discredit the efforts of both UAL and the union! It would be interesting to see what you’d have to contribute if your goal was to actually sow seeds of unity and progress for a company you seem to at least profess you support, rather than the unproductive ones you’re planting!
Matthew Klint, your “reporting” is sensationalizing at best, fabricated at worst. Clearly, you simply couldn’t be bothered to do your research properly. You chose to paint only the part of the picture that supports your drama.
So let me educate you. Here are the facts, easily verified by anyone who cares to look closely.
AFA did not abandon, dump, sacrifice or otherwise disrespect the 5500 most junior people. United decided to furlough those people, not AFA. If United decided to furlough people, AFA cannot “protect” or stop it. It’s United’s call, not AFA. Indeed, John Slater, in a letter to the United flight attendants stated:
“We have to size our flight attendant workforce to flying we expect for the foreseeable future. With the significant reduction in flight attendant block hours, there simply isn’t enough opportunity to support retaining a larger number of active crew members.”
AFA didn’t agree to any “back door” deal or make any “secret deal”. United initially decided to furlough around 11,000 +/- flight attendants. AFA wanted to furlough none. They worked an agreement to save as many as possible. AFA advocated for ALL flight attendants, but management at United insisted that 5500 MUST go. United gave AFA a choice: Either 11,000 +/- will be furloughed, or AFA can agree to this IVFMP (Involuntary Furlough Mitigation Program) and save all but 5500 jobs. It was United’s decision, not AFA. In the end, AFA had no choice but to save as many jobs as possible.
The decision was made on August 9, and the letter of agreement was drafted. Three of the leaders at AFA wanted to release the information to the flight attendant public right away, but were voted down, and for good reason: United refused to sign the agreement. Until the letter was signed by both parties, it was not a done deal. The majority of AFA leadership determined that with the volatile state of things, releasing the information without having a solid deal is premature and risky. United could have backed out, or insisted on changing the terms, or otherwise screwed it up. So AFA took the most prudent course and chose to withhold the information until it was confirmed.
Late on August 13, United management signed the letter. AFA released the information early on August 14.
If you’re going to make assertions like you did, you had better be sure you have all the facts and details, instead of simply spewing sensationalism. It makes you look like an ass, and reduces your credibility to that of tabloid reporting.
Seniority is earned thru years of service. With seniority comes perks and benefits. Just like with your miles and card spend come benefits. Stop jabbing at the AFA when you’ve got no clue what’s actually going on. UA will be lucky to survive period. I’ve been a junior guy on furlough before too. It sucks. I built my seniority as did the top FA’s at UA.
35 hours! Oh wow! Because people can survive off 35 hours A MONTH! IFFFFFFF they can even find 35 hours! You must be “above the line” if you think this a great deal! It’s a slap in the face for everyone!
I think you need to stop ‘reporting’ on the inner workings of crew employment. Every time I read anything about it, I ask myself, “why did he feel this was worth sharing?”.
It is clear that you have NO idea what being employed as a crewmember is like. This is routine behavior from an airline or union. The life is all about seniority. And even if FAs bitch about this deal, enough senior people actually take these leaves that more junior crew wouldn’t have ever even had a chance at being awarded anyway. It’s not news. You’re not revealing some big gasp-worthy proposal. But unfortunately, because you post things like this, you are just promoting the general public continuing to not truly understand how the life and job of a crewmember works. Stop. This is not your area of knowledge.
And no, I’m not a United employee that’s just mad about the whole thing (they sure do love to get angry when anyone says anything that can be seen as negative about their shit airline). I actually hate United for quite a few reasons. But I’m a crewmember that’s married to a crew member, with many crewmember friends. This isn’t just a UA thing. This kind of thing is pretty normal throughout the history of the industry.
Just because it is normal does not make it right. Nevertheless, I appreciate your comment. I write about topics I find interesting related to travel and this is one of them that merges travel, politics, and law, three of my favorite subjects.
I am usually critical of many bloggers here but I am with Matthew here.
The older/senior ones are the loudest and most obnoxious both inside and outside the airframe.
They pushed their junior colleagues under the bus….or wing.
Abstract out all the noise from AFA and AFA shills here and you will see it for what it is.
Gimme gimme gimme mine and you can f*** off.
In my 30 years I’ve taken 11 years’ worth of voluntary furloughs to avert involuntary furlough for someone more junior. We do it all the time. Seniority in this industry and many others is nothing new. While I’m certainly no fan of AFA and this new ‘program’, you’ve managed to blend together different realities to fit your needs for this story.
Many people have had their potential furloughs mitigated through several different forms of voluntary leaves and retirements. Junior people are always in danger during hard times. This is a pandemic. It’s worse than the 2008 economic crash or 9/11. That is why the large numbers affected. And?
What’s your goal? Flip the list? People have actually left the job permanently to help mitigate. You mention none of this. And your piece relies on those previous actions to tell this story. It’s not reporting. It’s blogging.
I started in 1974, in the airline industry. It was seniority then, as it is now. There is no better way than the seniority system, it’s tough but fair.
Dee, I sincerely hope you choke
On your own saliva. And that your salty crew meals give you the worst bloating imaginable. I hope that when you look in the mirror and you see those wrinkles next to your eyes, and that faint look of squiggly mascara and horrible eye shadow, that you truly see the clown you are. I hope you know that we know that the only reason you’re still here is poor money management (you’re a broke bitch at top out) so you can’t afford to retire. I hope that one day when the devil meets you at his flaming gates. That he shoves the pitch fork up your entitled dried cunt. Be blessed.
You are sick.
Why isn’t a comment where the author whishes another poster death (“choke on your own saliva”) removed by the moderators?
Because I let people hang themselves and don’t delete the evidence.
You’re not fed up, you’re f’ed up, with those hateful comments. It’s one thing to have an opinion, it’s quite a different matter to be so abusive.
I am uncertain how the AFA hung our juniors out to dry? Did other businesses that were forced to lay off massive employees due to major downturn in business sucker punch their employees? The juniors were warned for six months that layoffs are coming. UAL is HEMMORIGING massive amounts of money. This is the airline business! I have 37 years with UAL and sorry to say we are a seniority based company. Sorry to see them go but…… the show must go on or we all go down with the ship!!!!!!
Sorry to see them go??
“Hate to say but the junior flight attendants are the laziest, most useless, self inititled children I have ever had the displeasure of working with.”
You seem pretty content with their departure. Also, intitled isn’t a word.
*hemorrhaging
You comments are spreading all over online. Close your ignorant mouth and move on. I’m relatively senior and you are just embarrassing all of us- senior and Jr. Be quiet and Cee Ya Next Tues.
I hope and pray that your internet vocalism doesn’t match your airplane domeanor. How incredibly rude and disrespectful to say that about junior flight attendants. I’m not going to generalize senior flight attendants in the same way, though many have been a displeasure as well.
Dee, you and the dinosaurs will not live forever, you all had problems as it is now, barely could lift or arm your doors. Passengers are going to see all of this, passengers were already worried about old flight attendants and felt they weren’t safe. Now a lot of them are saying they won’t fly for UA because of old hags who are bitter because they are old now, and jealous and envious of younger flight attendants, when they see junior flight attendants, it’s a reminder that you are about be 6 ft under, that’s why you’re such an old bitter hag. Junior people are more Advance and can do the job better because you were stuck on your old ways. Senior people can’t do the job right anymore and it’s scary! You all sit on your jumpseat to read your book and become hostile to passengers. Junior people are not entitled ( we can spell that right) you don’t get respect you earn it, being bitter and nasty isn’t the way to go. You have a lot to learn, catch up with the rest of the world and stop being stuck in your old ways. Relax , watch an episode of mash and take your pills and ensure. Enjoy it before your time is up, and the junior people take over. United knows you’re dying off that’s why they are hiring, they want fresh new baby faces because that’s why the customer wants. There should be an age limit like pilots because if there was most of you guys will be gone. Don’t worry something is in the works.
You’ll be “old” someday, so make sure you save your rant so you can reminisce how nasty you were.
Can’t wait to fly with you ! Said no one ever ! Hope u stay anonymous cause u know it can get ugly !
Do you want to give us your U number? I don’t mind taking you to HR for bullying. Let’s see what your 37 years will give you once you are on the streets.
Don’t worry Dee we all have the screenshots of your first nasty message you deleted.
So these ” junior flight attendants” dues paid on behalf of them to your union doesn’t give them the decency of a legal vote is what your saying then huh? Good to know, thank you!
Hey Dee!
What’s your real name? I’m trying to find you on the seniority list? 🙂
Hello Dee. I am honestly very disappointed in your comment as someone with such experience as a flight attendant. Did you know that the Union and the Company have actively violated Section 18 of the contract? This is why we are “whining” because if the contract is violated for us with such ease, the very same contract YOU are on can be violated too.
One thing we will not stand for as your junior population is your bitterness. I need to be clear with you: we are trained and hired for the future of United. Not only are you bitter, you are miserable from 37 years of being put through the ringer with the company. Whether you like it or not, the company would rather do what they can to get rid of you than us. You are at top-out pay. Your attitude represents the toxic past of the airline. But if you treat our passengers like you treat those junior to you, you are not presenting the face of the company.
You are embarrassing.
I’m in that 5500 top group. Don’t put all of us in that hag group. I am to young to retire and I love my job.
You stated, Lo…
That, “The Union and the Company have actively violated Section 18 of the contract.”
Please explain the reasoning behind your accusation.
According to information I read…
The IVFMP negotiated by AFA and the company follows the satisfaction of the requirements of Section 18, and is a contractual and legally executed Letter of Agreement, beyond the requirements of the contract, between them (us) for the purpose of further reducing the involuntary furlough of thousands of Flight Attendants.
So, I see no violation of the contract! In fact, I see only compassionate efforts to lessen the inevitable impact the pandemic has had on our industry, similar to the programs initiated following the company’s bankruptcy in 2003.
In fact, I would hope the agreement is appreciated not only by the Flight Attendants who are able to take advantage of it, but by ALL Flight Attendants on behalf of their fellow co-workers!
Again… interested in hearing the reasons for your accusations!
August 20, 2020 at 7:17 pm
Dee, you sound like you need Jesus in your life! You sound selfish and bitter! Sorry that you are alone, We the 5500 will all be back no matter what your hateful wishes are, a matter of fact we are not gone yet! The impossible can become possible! Grow up D!
Wow, read through comments you caught my eye, DEE! You are pathetic, your words are full of devil in your soul, it doesn’t help out besides makes seniors look bad. Just because you been with UA 37 years and the rest have to suffer the same as you had? It’s toxic because my dad grow up in hunger so I should?? Find some one to love you, show you the proper human being, I bet you don’t.
What am I missing here?
Did Dee say:
“Hate to say but the junior flight attendants are the laziest, most useless, self inititled children I have ever had the displeasure of working with.”
in another forum?
Further down in the comments on this thread she made that statement.
[redacted] Dee.
No cursing, even in German!
Dee Harnish everyone. German speaker. she’s on Facebook, you’re welcome.
https://www.facebook.com/Djetssfo
It can’t be her, that FA only has 23 years per the staffing report. The real Dee says she/he has 37 years. ‘Dee’ could be short for Deandra, Dion…the list of names goes on and on…
You should delete your post, Kate. Unless you are trying to get a job in news media- get your facts first. Putting someone’s name and linking to a Facebook page like that will get you fired.
Kate, you have just libeled an innocent person. Do you have the courage to even display your full name to answer to this? Dee H. is NOT the Dee in this thread. Yet you exposed an innocent persons name and facebook page. How vile of you. She doesn’t even have anywhere near 37 years in the company. If you had the integrity and guts to show your real name, trust me, you would be facing legal recourse.
Good luck on reserve dee. Enjoy those 3am phone calls on 1 hour of sleep. Who’s entitled? The senior FAs are the ones that should go to save UA money. Junior FAs are less expensive. Bye Felicia.
Mr Klint I understand you post about things in the industry that interest you, but equally you create here a nest of hornets, and I’m sure it’s easy to produce the fuel and sit back and watch the fire burn.
It’s sensationalism at its worst.
As for the FA’s posting and showing their ugliest sides (presumably because it’s fairly anonymous) I’m ashamed to see the kind of stuff some of you are saying.
Threatening, name calling, exposing peoples names and bases? Let’s hope you have more concern for people on the plane. I’m utterly ashamed of those of you who are behaving like tantrum throwing children on a public forum. What do you think that tells the people who read these comments.
Old hags? Really? Dinosaurs? Lazy?
You put the Flight Attendant industry right where people like to think it is…
This is when you should be standing together, not acting like jealous, petulant children… and I’m not referring to senior or junior… I’m referring to all of you who have posted here with insults, and rudeness, and completely shamed the career.
Isn’t this illegal what the union did? All paying union members weren’t allowed to vote. I hope the 5500 that weren’t allowed to vote get a labor union attorney ASAP. FA’s have to pay a mandatory $50 a month for being in the union. I completely understand about seniority, but once again how is it legal for this union to allow only select members to vote and not allow all paying members to vote? Is that in their union contract? Thank you Matthew Klint for writing this article.
The reason this is legal is because airline employees are not protected by the Nat’l Labor Relations Act, but instead are governed by the antiquated Railway Labor Act of 1926, which assumes that the workers that fall under it will have union contracts to spell out their protections.
Airline employees without union representation are even more at risk.
The AFA members did not get to vote for a very simple reason: AFA is a “representational democracy”, like the US Government. We elect people to represent us, to make decisions for us. In government, they’re called Senators, Representatives, etc. In the union, they’re called MEC President/Secretary/Treasurer, and LEC President/Secretary/Treasurer/Representatives.
As US citizens, we don’t vote on every bill that comes before Congress. That’s the job of the congress-people we elect. They cast their vote which should represent the majority of their constituents.
As AFA members, we don’t vote on every issue that comes before AFA. That’s the job of the people we elected. They cast their vote which also should represent the majority of their constituents.
Nobody is going to be happy with every outcome. Human priorities are far too diverse to please everyone.
Thanks for such an eloquent and thoughtful reply Matthew. Perhaps you can enlighten the blogosphere with an alternate plan that would’ve saved all 15,100 jobs with zero additional cost to the company ? We’ll wait for a reply.
You misunderstood my response. The notion that I am “union-busting” is laughable if you’ve read my stories over the years. This may be the best option possible and I don’t downplay that there are not good choices and bad choices, but just bad choices, with the key being the choice of the least-bad option. But you can (and I certainly can) understand the frustration felt by junior FAs who were not offered voluntary separation packages and were told to “trust us” by the AFA only to be effectively written out of a settlement agreement and not even been given notice in advance.
Eva, you need to sit down and retire. You were working before I was even born and I have almost 20+ years. Yikes!! This is why customer service is so bad. Bitter and worn out. Just because your senior does NOT make you a good choice for in service. Senority may have been the norm since you were born back in the roaring 20’s but it is time for a change. We need to ban together as an industry whole to help our employers and our fellow employees. Including some who were employed in the turbo prop days retiring. How about transitioning to gate agent or a nice office job. Crew sched. or training. This B. S. of senority rules is just that B.S. We need to work together as a company instead of Corp Vs. Them. Allof us need to realize the airlines are hurting and work to protect the company so we all actually have an airline when this over. Get over this attitude of but I have been here since Luncoln I deserve to be WAAYYYY over paid while my fellow employees are in the food lines. Quit acting like a sky princess and start helping somebody else. You saw the post from the Px above they dont like old FAs, your not worth the money…really. Get over yourseves ans man up to help out others. GREEDY!!
Consider that skywest FA get paid half of United and work 100+ hours to get paid for 70 hours, 35 hours for UA sounds very livable.
John, People losing jobs does NOT have to be that way. We could agree to all scarifice paycuts to save these peoples jobs!! I realize its been the status quo but it does not have to be anymore we can take the burden equally. Job share, cut backs, etc. We can work together to save us all.
The cost of your ticket doesn’t afford you an opinion on the lives of airline employees. It does, however, describe the spoon from which an “avid traveler” has been fed.
AFA was attempting to save some of its members and if some had to go down with the ship the past practice says it’s the most junior. It was AFA and the legacy UA Flight Attendants that decided in negotiations that an involuntary furlough robbed an already beaten down coworker of everything and that was acceptable. Every Union across the country baits its membership with an illusion of brotherhood, but at the very first sign of trouble tosses that loyalty out the door in favor of the “first come, first served” methodology. If there was any real sense of Unionism, any real sense of commitment to the cause as espoused by AFA President Sara Nelson, then every United Flight Attendant represented by AFA would have shared equally in the burden so that not one their peers would be left out in the cold. A true and real Union, a true and real act of unionism, would have instead placed all 28,000 on half month earnings so that not one would go hungry. Had the elected Union leaders had seniority in the bottom 5,500 the negotiation results would have been very, very different and I strongly suspect they would have truly been a better reflection of Unionism.
Yes, AFA threw its weakest out. Yes, that’s all anyone at AFA had the courage to do. But, AFA is a summation of its membership and if the majority disagreed then they would make a change. You can’t attack AFA without first recognizing who is AFA.
Geese mate the guy is entitled to an opinion. As far as the furloughs go, no thanks. Last I’m first out. That’s just the way it goes.
On second thought if you REALLY want to “share” maybe all those ex Cons pony up or “share” some of their six figure$$$$$ lump sum parting gifts some the legacy UALers get the total sum of f c u k all as a parting gift…..
The cost of his ticket and my ticket and a million other tickets and taxes we pay for your benefit sure as heck does offer us an opinion, especially when a union is paid to represent ALL these employees make deals behind ALL these employees backs and blocks their legal votes!
NOOOO! KICK THOSE OLD MEAN UNITED B*TCHES OUT AND KEEP THE YOUNG ONES! UNITED AIRLINES IS LIKE A GRAZING PASTURE FOR ANGRY OLD WHITE BITCHES! YOU NEED TO FIRE ALL THOSE OLD NASTY UNITED BITCHES AND PUT IN SOME YOUNG SWEET SMELLING FLOWERS! I WILL NEVER FLY UNITED!
Nothing like an unhealthy dose of misogyny!!!
Those guys who think this way, first off would have NO SHOT with the young, cute flight attendants.
Second of all let’s hold them to the same standard. If they aren’t less than 10% body fat six pack abs Can run a mile in under 7 minutes then they get fired!!!!
God, I HOPE THEY BUST THAT UNITED AFA UNION TO PIECES AND HIRE FRESH YOUNG FACES WITH CHARM, SWEETNESS AND SENSE OF HOSPITALITY. UNITED AIRLINES FA’S ARE LIKE A GAGGLE OF ANGRY OLD WHITE WOMEN FIGHTING FOR THE LAST BINGO BOARDS IN THE BIN AT A SOLD OUT BINGO HALL!
Dude chill out, it is obvious you don’t like UA which is fine. However when you use the wored bitch multiple time and use all caps it makes you look stupid. If you want to get a point across then use big boy words and maybe people will listen. Something I learned in college is first impressions are key and my impression of you is that you live off of your computer, are probably a single male, slighly racist, and need a hug.
Damn, I am sort of glad I left FA training in December. Class of 1929 dropout. What a sh*t storm.
I have 36 years as an airline mechanic and inspector and a couple more at a defense contractor plus the three I spent at school training. I have spent at least half of my career under the burden of pay and benefit cuts and or freezes of some kind. I also lost my pension. At one time, my compensation and benefits package was comparable to that of nurses, cops, and firefighters. Now, it lags way behind all of those professions, and it will never again catch up. While other industries have done away with two and three tier wage scales, new hire aviation techs on average still have ten year wage progressions. Many of which NEVER match the older ‘A’ scale employees. During contract negotiations, the company fought hard to reduce our profit sharing and to force us to pay many hundreds of dollars per month for medical, while at the very same time it was spending billions of its record profits to buy back stock for executives. Now, as in every other crisis, “we are all in it together,” again. No “we” are not, because outside of crisis, there never is. Anyone who believes any CEO or VP in the aviation or airline industry who tells workers that jobs can or will be “saved” by “voluntary” reductions in pay, benefits, hours, etc. is delusional. The word of executives to aviation workers especially when it is given to those who wear blue collars and not wings, is worth absolutely nothing, whether it is spoken, written, texted, or in the form of a video conference. If the senior FAs were to make that wonderful gesture of solidarity, and by the way, sacrifice decades of hard earned seniority rights by doing so, within a few months, or maybe a year at the most, the furloughs would still occur, the jobs would still be lost, and the company would hold the remaining employees to the agreed reduced compensation. This sort of thing has happened over and over again without fail over the course of my career. It will not be different this time, because the power relationship and the mentality of management never changes. If I was able to do it all over, I would never choose aviation as a profession and I do not recommend it to any young person with technical skills, ambition, and a sense of self worth. It’s a rigged game and the worker always loses. In the high tech world of 2020, there are far better options.
The writer has an obvious prejudice against United because this is simply a case of SENIORITY ‼️
I don’t have a prejudice against United or senior FAs. Despite charges to the contrary, I am also very aware of the way the seniority system works, even if I have issues with it. My concern remains the way junior FAs were sold the concept of solidarity for months when that ultimately meant sacrificing them for the “greater good”.
I’m just curious, Matthew…
A company has 25,000+ employees in the work group, with a seniority range of 50+ years to +/-2 years. The company decides they need to reduce that workforce by nearly 50%!
How would you do it? Go!
In Matthews defense, I’d furlough the top paying to a certain seniority. So I can pay the other workers less because they have less seniority. Since this is a fair is fair. Why would I want to pay someone who is leeching my system at their top out pay which from what I read, most are not really working their full schedules? They work one high paying trip and are off the entire schedule they made for themselves. The fairness of that work trickles down to the younger force on whatever their reserve system is. Sounds almost like getting rich or welfare because the senior person earned it. I don’t know how they make money with this kind of system saving this kind of system. But clearly that is the driving wedge from what I’m seeing between two groups that basically do the same job, different decades. I haven’t had perfect experiences being a customer with United within a older version of a flight attendant but undoubtedly could tell who was more youthful. Not saying I haven’t flown with some amazing older flight attendants as a passenger but it’s very far in balance of good outweighing then bad. It was bitter outweighing the job description.
The 5500 aren’t offered the 35 hour NAL lines. Just IVF.
I’d rather the 5500 most senior get sacrificed. Those are the grumpiest old hags that should have found another line of work decades ago. They are also the most overpaid. As usual, unions will fight to ensure the least valuable employees are protected while the most valuable are punished.
Most senior should get sacrificed. They are over payed, it would cost more to pay them hourly $63 whereas the new hires get $30 an hour. They just passed training and seniors will be called back to work once operations return to normal !!!
I cannot believe what I am reading. No one should be “sacrificed.” Senior
People are over paid? So does that mean you don’t want to be at $67.11 an hour one day? I’m not senior I’m 13 years and make that. Unite together stop with the hate, name calling and separation. It’s a horrible time for most people we don’t need this to make it worse. I hope you all find your happiness again.
Thank you.
NOOOO! KICK THOSE OLD MEAN UNITED BICHES OUT AND KEEP THE YOUNG ONES! UNITED AIRLINES IS LIKE A GRAZING PASTURE FOR ANGRY OLD WHITE B….ES! YOU NEED TO FIRE ALL THOSE OLD NASTY UNITED B….ES AND PUT IN SOME YOUNG SWEET SMELLING FLOWERS! I WILL NEVER FLY UNITED!
Honestly now you are just coming off like a pervert.
The most senior FA’s aren’t going anywhere they lost their pension in the bankruptcy so they will keep going till they drop
Hate to say but the junior flight attendants are the laziest, most useless, self inititled children I have ever had the displeasure of working with.
Your comment is very rude, condescending, and untrue. I’m sorry you have so much hate in your heart that you feel the need to bash your coworkers publicly.
Clifford not to mention they had their wages slashed by about 30% for almost 15 years. Many of those months in those years were on reserve where one had no ability to fly overtime as you were at the mercy of the crew desk in regards to your flying hours!!!!
Dee, you sound like you need Jesus in your life! You sound selfish and bitter! Sorry that you are alone, We the 5500 will all be back matter what your hateful wishes are, a matter of fact we are not gone yet! The impossible can become possible! Grow up D!
Jacques, you are displaying major ignorance. Nobody will take these comments you are posting with any seriousness at all. It does sound like you need a hug.
I have been with United for 28 years. I have so much fun on my flights and I love my job. I love joking with the passengers and helping them with whatever they need. All the generalizing Re: seniority and age is insulting.
In my opinion, the main problem with the additional offer of No Activity Lines/pick up 35 hrs from other flight attendants (if you can) is that the plan was negotiated in secret. AFA was not supposed to leak it. If it was leaked no deal. That is SHADY! Some flight attendant’s would rather be Involuntarily furloughed. That way, they would receive furlough pay. The scary part is that after 6 years, if you aren’t called back, you are severed from the company. That and the lack of some benefits after the 1st 3 months,
Everything that is happening here has become quite complicated. With the new plan offered, some junior flight attendants are keeping their jobs while more senior FAs already took a voluntary furlough (not knowing this plan would be placed on the table) At this point, I really hope the cares act is extended. Then, everything is null and void and the entire furlough process begins again from square one.
Some of the comments on this page are absolutely shocking. People say “seniors” are terrible, selfish people for not quitting. And in the same breath, they say they want young, pretty girls to work their flights. How old are you? What is your line of work? When do you plan to leave your job? Times are tough enough right now. The negativity some of you display leaves me to believe you are suffering some major Covid depression. Treat others how you would like to be treated and stop throwing stones at glass houses.
* Many of you keep referring to “hags”, “women” and “girls”. You know we have loads of male attendants, right?
Some of ‘junior FAs’ are not children and wow I can’t believe we have the ‘pleasure’ of calling someone as compassionless as you a colleague.
I can’t imagine how miserable your life must be to go out of your way to spread such hatred for people who are doing the same jobs that you are. I’ve seen laziness, hatred, and ENTITLEMENT (Ms. Dee, spell-check was invented in the 1970’s. Utilize the tools you have access to), from every level of seniority. Being a certain age, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, seniority level, etc., does not make you an inherently good, wise, or hard working person. *BEING* a good, wise, hard working person does.
And that, as many of my friends would say, is on periodt.
Honestly there lot of lazy senior flight attendants too so it goes both ways
Where can I get a refund on my thousands of dollars that I payed into the union for nothing?
Dee, may God bless you and fill your heart with much needed compassion, joy and love.
Excuse me? I have over 16 orchid letters in my file from 4 years here. I have received not one but two surprise gift cards for my outstanding work and dedication, one from Scott himself. I have tremendous pride in my job and my work ethic. Most time I am the only one answering call bells, doing seat belt checks, and refills. How dare you call us lazy and entitled! I was given the Be Gracious award for going above and beyond for my customer service. Do you realized that MANY of “junior” flight attendants are 40 and above? We work for our shit, we work for our pride, we work because we love working.!!!
And senior flight attendants are some of the most rude and Non-empathetic people I’ve had the displeasure of working with. That’s towards your own kind, senior to junior. The company. The union. And anyone else you can find to blame for your lack of decent human skills and miserable life you seem to live. You all need to go back to training cause you don’t have the slightest clue when it comes to safety. If only United’s training taught people how to be a kind person. I can’t wait to share a jumpseat with you Dee!
Dee, you sound so bitter! Please head over to the nearest senior citizen assisted living space and enjoy your last few years instead of being a keyboard warrior on the internet or asking “juniors” how to work an iPhone!
LOL and could not agree more.
I DARE you to write your completely inaccurate and self centered comments on Galley Gab Dee. The majority will eat you alive and put you in your place, no matter how senior you are.
With AFAs help, United’s initial number of 15,100 involuntary furloughs has been reduced by almost 2/3. The junior FAs support of their union by paying dues is returned as they gain seniority.
We all start at the bottom. And yes, I have been involuntary furloughed when I was a junior flight attendant because of the first Gulf War. I didn’t blame the union and I had paid my dues and supported my union.
I’m in that top 5500 I could not take the retirement because one I’m not old enough to collect SS two I love my job and when I do become old haggard bitch then I would leave do not put all 30+flight attendants in the same boat. Unfair
what they should have done is offer the IVF to everyone, then award it in seniority order, up to the number that the company needs. Similar results, but fair to all.
So now will be assured to only get the oldest FAs yay
For those flight attendants who have been with the company almost five years, have suffered through shamefully low ridiculous wages (we are talking almost food stamp low), and were just now about to start earning a decent income this is very much a slap in the face. Senior flight attendants at United have always looked out for themselves and this is just another example. Disgusting.
Casey I hate to break it to you but, adjusted for inflation, the juniors now make A LOT more on Zb scale than we did 15 plus years ago. Not having a go but I feel your pain. In this job one had to be very good with money.
Are you kidding me? They can’t make much less. Junior flight attendants could qualify for food stamps and free medical—it’s shameful how little they are paid. The senior flight attendants forget what it’s like first starting out and make it extremely difficult for those who are. Very tough to make a living. In San Fran they have to live 4 plus to a room to be able to afford a crash pad. It’s ridiculous.
No I am not kidding you. The B scale pay was pretty much equivalent until we signed the new. Interact in 2015. What did B scalers get a 20 % increase or more???
I might also add that a majority of the people flying during Covid to keep the airlines afloat were your junior flight attendants. At their own risk. If everyone would give a little (like what seems to be happening at other airlines) then maybe they wouldn’t have to sacrifice those with less seniority.
Problem #1 . Attacking your own. Those standing shoulder to shoulder with you are NEVER your enemy.
Hi Matt,
Thank you for writing this article.
Nothing about your article that’s not correct,neither are any of the opinions voiced here. It all depends on the position you’re in, and that’s different for everybody.
I work as a captain for another major airline. The nature of the beast is unfortunately a system based on years of seniority. Is it correct that the bottom 5000+ employees get layed off, who have been working hard in these times of a global pandemic, and put a smile on their faces every day they put on that uniform and go to work scared? No, off course not, but we all know if there’s a kink in the airline cable the most junior ones go first. In my 37 years flying, I’ve gotten furloughed 3 times,based on my seniority. In essence, nobody really cares that I have flown airplanes in the most adverse conditions, saved people’s lives during flight emergencies or just try to be a kind and good human being. Nobody really cares about the mechanic who just replaced a wheel on the aircraft, or the person who delivered your meal. The numbers dictate whether I can stay or not. That is so with airline employees, but also with people who work for any cooperation and get to hear after 30 years of perfect attendance, that their jobs are being shipped to a cheaper country. We are all expendable.
Is anybody concerned our smart phones and consumer electronics are being manufactured in China, India or Bangladesh by 10 year old children, or kids are forced into prostitution in many countries?
Welcome to the toxic waste pool, produced by Capitalism my friends.
It is the way it goes right? Isn’t that what we are told in the indoctrination and brainwashing speeches given to us?
Currently, my base is reducing it’s Captain pilot staffing with almost 30%,putting myself in a position close to being on reserve again as the flying is significantly reduced due to Covid.
With a wife ( 27 years with UA), who just came out of brain surgery and severe complications associated with this, I am forced to fly as a first officer again, in order to be able to take care of her,and maybe might have to quit flying all together.
Hourly, I will be making less then 40% of my flight attendants will be making. I made a choice for my family, and not my career or my finances. I can keep a great seniority if I’m willing to commute to another city, but that sacrifice I’m not willing to make anymore for this messed up industry.
That is, after being a captain for more then 20 years,and having spent more then $200000 on education,and even risking my life for my country. We all have our burdens and demons to deal with, and if there’s one thing Covid 19 has uncovered, it’s how disconnected, selfish and apathetic people are to each other. Keep it all together people, we might get through this.
Life is not about ourselves, it’s about others. The day you understand this sentence, is the day you’ll start living.
This is the time where we will either stand together, or fall together,and right now we’re in a state of free fall.
✌
@Turbo, a very thoughtful post, yes unfortunately it is a non caring, money first world. I look very carefully to see where something is made, and will go out of my way to purchase US or European products – even a vintage item often far superior to a “broken out the box” or “work one time only” new Asian item. I retired from an unrelated industry when my boss said he could not hire until everyone in his group worked over 60 hours consistently…. so the management message for not having enough colleagues and too much to do without support was basically my fault !…… ridiculous, adios
And that’s exactly what United is doing. UNITED MANAGEMENT, not AFA determined that 5500 needed to go. How is it AFA’s fault that these people are getting laid off?
Are we all really surprised at this? Unions work GREAT* afterall!
*if one happens to be in a) leadership or b) highly senior
How do I put this politely, Chase…
As someone familiar with how unions operate… from top to bottom… or in AFA’s case…
From bottom to top… it’s obvious that you have no idea what you’re talking about!
I get that you’d like to believe you know…
And you want everyone else to believe you know… but you don’t!
It’s also pretty obvious that you’re not either a) in a leadership position, or b) highly senior…
Which means you’re most likely a pissed off junior Flight Attendant who’s going to be furloughed! Or, at least close to it… reserve? Last choice for vacation… etc, etc.
I feel your pain, man… most all of us have been through it at least once in our career…
But own it… don’t blame everyone else for it!
It’s the union, the company and the Senate that’s dragging their feet. The IVFMP was offered after the the involuntary and voluntary furloughs, in what seems like a switch in bate from the union. The company is going by a seniority list from a June. The Senate has Mitch McConnell, that’s all I have to say about that.
I don’t think you understand the intended effect of the plan. The idea is for every senior FA who takes the deal, it reduces the number of involuntary furlough needed. The AFA has estimated that 6,059 junior FAs will be furloughed if nothing was done, and this is another attempt to keep the mid-tier seniority FAs, who are not quite ready to retire or leave the profession, and keep them connected to the company, continue to have benefits (both medical and travel) while accruing seniority while reducing payroll cost for the company. I guess your concern is why the same package was not offered to the most-junior FAs, but I would not view it as sacrificing them for the sake of more senior members. Is it fair? No. But the sensationalist headline makes this a click-bait than a thoughtful analysis.
What makes you think I don’t understand the plan? Didn’t I explain it in detail? It is very generous and if I were one of those mid-tier seniority FAs, I would take the deal in a heartbeat. Kudos to United for such a generous offer.
But this is more than a sensationalist headline. You can appreciate why junior FAs are angry and why they feel betrayed by the move not from United, but from the union they pay dues to in order to protect them. This deal was agreed to secretly with no input from flight attendants, particularly the ones who stood to be on the losing end.
It is really sad that they are sacrificing the bottom 5,500. I’ve flown United for many years and I have realized that for that past 5 years, their service onboard has gotten better due to the younger faces I have seen. They are more compassionate and actually have a passion for what they do. They don’t seem to be washed up or tainted but unpleasant experiences. They bring fresh attitudes and their fresh outlook is simply refreshing. United is doing a great mistake if they decide to let them go. Also, I’ve noticed that the more senior flight attendants struggle with daily tasks such as pulling a heavy cart up the aisle or storing their own bags. Aside from a service point of view, I don’t know if I trust an elderly flight attendant being able to evacuate a plane in case of an emergency. I really do hope the AFA does something to help those individuals below the 5500 line out or that the CARES Act is extended!
What’s a great deal?? The NAL??
You’re right, Matthew…
It is a “very generous” deal from United (cost neutral, of course!), and I’m surprised and impressed the company agreed to it as well!
The problem I have is the position from which you attempt to “explain it in detail” which was actually quite DISingenuous… since you only bothered to explain half the details of how the deal came about, and then intentionally proceeded to deny, deflect, attack, and lie about the other half… that being AFA’s involvement in the deal… and more than inferred the union had failed in its duties and responsibilities to its members; pitting Flight Attendant against Flight Attendant when there is absolutely no need or reason to do so. And by doing all of the above, you proved you actually DON’T have a grasp of the situation!
Unfortunately, you only seem concerned with voicing an ignorant opinion in support of the half of the equation you’re most familiar with… the Corporate side. In another post, I pondered what the consequences might be if you were to actually consider and give credit to the AFA side… you know… the side that directly represents the 25,000 Flight Attendants whom you feel are so left in the dark, and whom you profess you want to keep informed!
Continues to have benefits (medical and travel)? How are you going to pay for the medical if you have zero hours and Can’t pick up any trip? The whole point of the union is to not loose that many members so they can still continue to collect union due!
Very short sighted perspective, Eric…
1st question… How would you pay for health insurance if you’re unemployed?
2nd question… If you’re still employed… wouldn’t you still have access to lower cost group health insurance?
3rd question… If you think it’s such an easy thing to accomplish, what are your ideas for keeping all Flight Attendants working.
4th question… If you think collecting dues is the number one priority for AFA, don’t you think they would do absolutely everything to collect those dues… possibly including a requirement for dues to be paid while on furlough?
5th question… When you were growing up… did you always get a participation trophy?
6th question… Did you lose your big boy panties?
Just askin’…!
You are totally wrong. The senior FA who are NOT SUBJECT to involuntary furlough cannot elect to participate in the IVFMP. Only those who will be involuntarily furloughed who are senior to the junior 5,500. Tell me this, with 5,500 involuntarily furloughed, and another 3,000 voluntary furloughs, do you really think that there is a need for an additional 6,000-plus furloughs?? Delta will reduce to about 17,000 from the approximately 20,000 that are currently on the seniority list. Are you telling me that United will run the airline with less than 12,000?? They are scaring 6,000-plus into this horrible IVFMP and United will have basically 33% of their FAs on call. United played AFA BIGTIME.
James you are spot on!
Frankly, seems generous to me. No wonder the AFA acceded to the UAL offer.
It’s very generous. My point is that it comes at the expense of the junior flight attendants.
Generous would be you not commenting on something you know nothing of, no matter how you label your little airline reporting hobby.
Don’t tell us what is and isn’t generous. Are you and united guaranting the thousands of us will find 35 hours to pick up?
NO.
I feel your pain Johnny…this is a tough time.
I can already picture Johnny Smitty working a flight. We all know the type. Insert Harrison Ford gif yelling, “GET OFF MY PLANE.”
Part of me wishes the U.S. carriers had the chukkie chukkies to actually stand up to all of you in the way British Airways has. We’d finally get to see your attitude, along with seniority based pay and rank, thrown out into the pasture of being antiquated once and for all.
Not generous at all. All those who take the IVFMP will not accrue pay seniority. My wife, if she participates in lieu of an involuntary furlough, will lose $17,500 over the next five years. Multiply that by about 6,000 and that’s a big time donation to an airline that will have $17 billion at the end of the third quarter.
We ALL do our time to reach the lovely senior SENORITY where we can breathe easier….
Its unfortunate that the most junior FA’s must fall…..
When offered the job (CJO) you accepted the thought of furlough sometime during your flight life….ITS A CRUEL WORLD!!
I agree that “your union” doesn’t give a rats bootie about you….
Matthew you are unbelievably clueless on internal airline issues. The senior FAs at United have paid their dues in spades and the junior ones will get their turn someday. You don’t have much credibility anymore.
Sorry you feel that way…
Seniority is everything in the airline industry. AFA is a fantastic union. Furloughs are horrible, but if they are to happen they go in inverse seniority order. That’s just how it works…. always has.
Clear, simple, concise and true. A lot of posters could have saved a lot of time if they had just read this and moved on.
I’m part of the 5500 and a detail mentioned in the article is incorrect. (Though I’d like to add I really appreciate that you addressed what’s going on.)
“But what about those 5,500 most junior members (those with approximate seniority dates after August 2015)? Should they decline to accept a voluntary separation package, they will likely face involuntary furloughs.”
Many of us who fall into this group applied for voluntary furloughs before the furlough mitigation program was introduced, but it was decided only those senior to the 5500 mark are eligible, just as they are the only ones eligible to participate in the IVFMP. We have not been offered any option to avoid being involuntary furloughed, though many of us would accept a bone being tossed in our direction since we’re so frighted of losing our healthcare right now.
I’ve corrected it. My apologies for that error!
That “bone” won’t be offered to you, Alex…
Unless and until enough VFs or IVFMPs are accepted ahead of you.
The basis of any VF/IVFMP plan is that it must be “cost neutral”… meaning the funds saved at one end of the equation must at least equal the costs of retaining employees at the other end… and the bean counters are in complete control of what that looks like… because the cost neutral balance is not as simple as a one-for-one exchange due to numerous factors such as the graduated pay scale, the likelihood and ability of those IVFMP FAs to actually pick up FLTM, etc…
But in the end, the more senior people that take the IVFMPs… the more junior FAs can remain on the payroll. That ratio declines as the seniority of those awarded IVFMPs declines… and so fewer junior FAs can remain. In the past, VFs worked very well to avoid IVFs… although this is quite a unique circumstance involving massively larger numbers!
Good luck… We ALL hope it works out for as many people as possible!
I am one of those 5500! Please correct one part of your article – Unfortunately we aren’t even being given the option to take a voluntary furlough which would protect our healthcare! We are getting the straight AXE! Involuntary Furlough it is! No choice! All 5500 will be gone come October 1st! Absolute sham of a deal!!!! They claim it wasn’t a Concession. Absolute rubbish! It was a concession to 5500 living and breathing flight attendants!
I’ve corrected it. My apologies for that error!
Thank you! And I appreciate your efforts to give us a voice! Unlike the AFA.
Did someone not teach you about seniority?
Quit crying, many of us have dealth with far worse for far longer.
I’ve had cancer before so you should get it too? That type of mentality will get you no where sir! Please retire if you are so bitter!
It’s sick what the AFA did to you guys. And even sicker is Sara Nelson exploiting 9-11 to pretend that she cares about you guys. Check out this sickening video:
If you only knew, James…
How off center and just plain wrong you are!
I’ve known and worked with Sara for years… and while I may not always agree with her specifics… one thing I will always know is how she always puts the interests of Flight Attendants first, and how dedicated she is to seeing we get the very best possible.
And also… I know she’s a true Unionist… in the full sense of the word… in that she works for the benefit of ALL American workers and their families, regardless of industry! Something we see far too little of in this day and age of “It’s all about me!”
Get your facts right!! AFA was able to keep over 6000 flight attendants connected to their benefits during a pandemic. AFA does not have a magic wand to save 15000 jobs. Every effort was made to keep everyone in the payroll, but unfortunately United is losing up to 30 millions per day. At the end of the day the employer decided right sizing the population according to the block hours projected for October 1st was essential for its survival. Any job loss mitigation had to be at no cost to the company and with no concessions to our contract. This is not an easy situation for anyone involved. We need to ride this together and not feed into toxic behavior. Union bursting article.
That’s BS. Why did AFA agree with United management that IVFMP participants would NOT accrue pay seniority. My wife will lose over $17,000 over the next five years because of totally incompetent scheme. United will have 17 BILLION at the end of the third quarter and has already said it will get through the pandemic with or without federal help. AFA just decided to give them millions more directly from flight attendants. UNITED TOTALLY PLAYED AFA.
Welcome to the airline industry. Seniority is everything and is what will either keep you around and show you the door when times get tough. This is nothing new and everyone that joined industry, joined with the knowledge of how seniority works when it comes to bids and layoffs. “Last in, first out” isn’t just a saying, it’s an actual thing that happens and is written into almost every employment agreement and union contract when it comes to layoff/furlough policy. Absolutely sucks that things have come to this, especially since the industry was booming just 4-5 months ago. But no one who works in this industry should be surprised about how seniority order works when it comes to layoffs. Facing the same threat myself and the only thing I can do is have my resume ready and make a list of potential job leads if/when the axe falls on me as well. Sadly just a fact of life in the aviation world. Highly volitile industry to be in.
Just curious, James…
What would your wife be earning… or losing… if she was unemployed?
And…
“Why did AFA agree with United management that IVFMP participants would NOT accrue pay seniority.’
That’s a great question…! I have my own answer… but I’m not positive it’s correct, so I won’t post it to avoid spreading misinformation…! But…
Why don’t you ask someone who can answer it factually… like your LECP… who actually did vote on the agreement?
Rather than doing what you’re doing here… kicking and complaining against something simply because YOU don’t like what’s happening… and because you THINK you know what you really don’t know…!
The AFA wants to keep as many Flight Attendants as possible so the dues keep coming in they are just another corporation that’s really only concerned in keeping the shekels coming in
What UA and the AFA have done to the junior flight attendant population is beyond horrible. Both the company and the union sold out its most junior population. In the middle of a national pandemic? No health insurance, NOTHING!! Everyone in the union pays dues but the most junior are being left out of this twisted deal? How is that legal. Not to mention how sneaky the AFA union is being. The most junior should organize and not stand for this. The public needs to know what United is doing to its employees. It’s just wrong.
To further add… what this means for the bottom 5500 flight attendants is that this deal may mean we won’t get recalled for a longer period of time. The union sent a horrible message when they justified their decision by saying it allowed more members to stay connected to their healthcare… in other words healthcare is now a seniority based reward? The last I checked, it was a human right and the unions job is to give a voice to ALL, most importantly it’s junior members. It is not to protect a select group of flight attendants!
Again I ask, many of you just loved everything about Obama. Just go on Obamacare. Problem solved. What am I missing. Btw I think I have had other posts disappear…..
The airline industry is all about seniority (not older vs younger). At most companies the last hired are typically the first to go. This is an unfortunate situation all around. Most of the senior flight attendants have been involuntarily furloughed at least once in their career, some even more. This was a deal made between both the Union and the Company. The Company is also responsible to protect all its employees, but for some reason this article is only disputing the Unions position. If it were up to the Union they would prefer the Company not Involuntarily Furlough any Flight Attendants. Also, don’t overlook the fact that the Senior Flight Attendants who volunteered to take a Furlough saved over 1,000 jobs.
It is really sad that they are sacrificing the bottom 5,500. I’ve flown United for many years and I have realized that for that past 5 years, their service onboard has gotten better due to the younger faces I have seen. They are more compassionate and actually have a passion for what they do. They don’t seem to be washed up or tainted but unpleasant experiences. They bring fresh attitudes and their fresh outlook is simply refreshing. United is doing a great mistake if they decide to let them go. Also, I’ve noticed that the more senior flight attendants struggle with daily tasks such as pulling a heavy cart up the aisle or storing their own bags. Aside from a service point of view, I don’t know if I trust an elderly flight attendant being able to evacuate a plane in case of an emergency. I really do hope the AFA does something to help those individuals below the 5500 line out or that the CARES Act is extended
They are not sacrificing anyone. They happen to be at the bottom of the list.
Now let’s see how many would leave if their pension were reinstated. I know it isn’t going to happen but just saying. Also the legacy UALers worked for about 12 for bankruptcy wages substandard by about 30% !!!
Not to make it a junior vs senior thing but had those employees not suffered for all those years to help save the airline no one else wild even have a sniff of a chance to enjoy the job/ lifestyles.
YOU ARE WELCOME!! Hold my beer!!!
The IVFMP is not a generous offer. It totally violates seniority. You stay connected with benefits that you still have to pay your share but without the guarantee of an income as well as pay your union dues every month. It places flight attendants in a holding pattern that benefits united because it gives them access to possibly thousands of flight attendants at a moments notice. Considered active but not entitled to sick accrual or vacation accrual. Recall rights are also not followed by this agreement allowing junior flight attendants that take this option to come back to flying first before flight attendants senior to them that opt for the involuntary furlough. This agreement is riddled with loopholes that only benefit United. AFA has done a great disservice to its membership by signing on to this abomination of an agreement. AFA has also set back the labor movement and have stained unionism. This entire agreement has violated every level of seniority from the most senior down to the most junior. To hijack and use healthcare as leverage at a time of a pandemic is cruel and criminal. Flight attendants heeded the call by the thousands to help the company with cash burn by taking COLAs and now the very company they helped are gutting their contract, throwing the bottom 5500 under the bus all with the aid of the AFA under the guise of keeping them connected to healthcare at the expense of everything else.
All of what you said is 10000000% correct. Thanks for being so eloquent about how you put it.
I agree that flyguy101 offers a persuasive argument that will cause me to rethink my own view of IVFMP.
@flyguy101: thanks for your comment!
Matthew Klint thank you for putting this out there.
Fly guy is 100% right!!!!!
To the 5500 flight attendants on the bottom of the list please know that your peers see you and don’t think of you as a number. Most of us, if not all, have been affected by furlough throughout our career either thru 9/11 or bankruptcy or recession and for some more than once. Please know that when we fight to keep our contract intact we fight for everyone. Good luck to us all.
I don’t think it’s right a union is celebrating furloughing only 5500 opposed to 15100 during a pandemic. That’s like saying well all 5 of you got injured but thank god only 3 of you got minor injuries! Kinda callous to say the least, especially during a pandemic.
I have an extra pair of big boy panties, Greg…
Since it appears you need them more than I do…
I’d be happy to give them to you…
FREE… NO CHARGE… Just quit whining!
You are mischaracterizing what was accomplished. Perhaps you might want to take a minute and contact a Union representative to get a better understanding of what you would be able to take advantage of instead of being placed on involuntary furlough status with nothing.
This is very accurate article on what happened to us junior FAs.
We gave up so much in order to take this job, move to the most expensive cities, and be on the lowest end of the pay scale. This is not a compliant as I love my career and would do it again, however the AFA slapped us in the face with this back door deal that NON of the membership was consulted on.
I certainly feel for you 5,500. Don’t to think the union wanted this for everyone?? Think they probably did but the commonality said no.
Dee, you sound like you need Jesus in your life! You sound selfish and bitter! Sorry that you are alone, We the 5500 will all be back no matter what your hateful wishes are, a matter of fact we are not gone yet! The impossible can become possible! Grow up D!
Please don’t forget that without this deal the number of Involuntary Furloughs would have been 15,100! Because of the senior flight attendants that volunteered to take a furlough and this “deal” the number has now been reduced drastically to 5,500. That alone speaks volumes. Also, the Union did another deal which hasn’t been mentioned. They had the Company agree to not immediately let go those under 6 months which contractually could have happened. Also, the Union did another deal that is allowing those that will be Involuntarily Furloughed to keep their Healthcare for 3 months. The ultimate decision to let go employees and how many is up to the Company and not the Union. The Union also fought for furlough pay and recall rights which many other airlines do not have in their contract. These are hard times for the airline industry, this is far worse than September 11 (except for the fact that lives were lost). But, unfortunately, the bottom line is every airline needs to reduce it’s workforce and this is a seniority driven industry.
I think you’re confused. The senior flight attendants did not make the involuntary furlough number go from 15,100 to 5,500. The line only moved from 1996 to 1999. So essentially, the senior flight attendants didn’t take enough voluntary furloughs or voluntary separations. If no one below the 1999 senior takes this new deal, there will still be roughly 15,000 involuntary furloughed flight attendants. And while the union may have made some decisions that benefitted its members, this deal is not one of them. The lease the union can do for the bottom 5500 now is to get rid of the 6 year recall limit and make it unlimited as this deal conflicts the recall order as it should’ve been.
Doesn’t matter how many took voluntary. It was an option not a obligation. Those that took it did so and those below the line should be happy for that. Being furloughed, is a very real possibility in the airline industry and should never be forgotten ( coming from somebody that has been furloughed few times the old fashioned way.. Stay/Go ..I’m happy for this opportunity.
If I understand correctly the situation was UAL needed to right size and
a) Lay-off some set of FAs because they wouldn’t be needed for foreseeable future
b) furlough another set of FAs for a medium term because they are not needed for the short term.
No union could alter that undeniable reality. The negotiations could only help the packages offered to a) and b) and perhaps ask for voluntary retirement to reduce set a) which the UAL already did.
Here we have a pretty generous offer for furloughed but no details yet for laid off. It appears both UAL and the union are just concerned about people who will be back on the rolls eventually and are burning bridges with those that won’t.
Thank you for representing the forgotten 5,500 as I am one. This is what we call a failure to represent. Our Union has failed to represent each one of us as equals. We all pay the same dues and perform the same tasks. The only difference is seniority. The Union chose to represent a portion of our membership. If the CARES ACT does not pass we 5,500, will be without healthcare coverage during a pandemic. Inhumane. No excuse.
There must be a reason you are “One Of the Forgotten,” 5,500…
Perhaps it’s because YOU’VE forgotten… or maybe you never bothered to learn… What the actual purpose of Unions is, and what they can and cannot actually do!
I don’t think now is the time for that lesson… however, I’d like to suggest, especially if you intend to continue being a union member, that you do some reading so you understand what union responsibilities, AND LIMITATIONS are… as well as what YOUR responsibilities are as a union member.
That might make it a little easier to understand and experience what is happening in our job, our industry, and our country!
Thanks Trump for single handling destroying people lives. We knew in December while flying overseas but didn’t know how bad it would play out for us. Too much time was spent on politics and not protecting the American people.
Get your head out of the clouds, Tiffany. Trump had nothing to do with this. Blame Nancy Pelosi who doesn’t know how to pass a straight “help” bill without loading it up with irrelevant pork. Remember The Kennedy Center fiasco. Never before has the Federal government augmented unemployment. Be happy you got that extra money while you did. If the economy had not been sailing along so well prior to Corona virus, we would be in a deeper pandemic. Stick to the issues or zip it.
Thank you Flygal 2020
The unwarranted hate and blame on Trump. That got to STOP!!!!
Maybe you missed the $1.75B the Republicans tried to slip in to build a new FBI building (vs. planned move to suburbs), so Trump’s hotel across the street wouldn’t have new commercial competition? That’s only about 90x of the Kennedy Center money.
#BothSides
This is a Furlough. It’s part of your job as a flight attendant. The game is accruing seniority. More seniority, more security. I’m on airline 3 and I’ve lost seniority 2 times and furloughed 2 times. I’m so thankful to be able to have this opportunity, (this gift) of IVFMP which keeps me from involuntary number 3. You certainly can be upset that you’re being furloughed, but there’s no reason for anger in a situation like this. There isn’t enough money to keep everybody on and live like it was 2019. It’s called business. United Airlines wants to survive and be around to recall you. By the way, there’s pandemic insurance available on states UI website. It is not expensive.
Oh puuuullllleeeeeeeeze. That time the numpties in dc were yapping about impeachment. They had hearings about COVID-19 and barely anyone showed up!!!
You hate trump so you probably loved Obama. That’s fine. Get on Obamacare!!!
This is why conservatives and many others are critical of labor unions. Junior FAs are required to join, required to pay dues, then get shafted. Many have argued here that it was a pragmatic move by the AFA, aimed at the greater good of all members and the profession. Easy for them to say as no one at the union is losing their jobs.
You’re absolutely right, Andy…
Junior Flight Attendants are REQUIRED (along with ALL Flight Attendants) to pay union dues… They’re also REQUIRED to receive above average wages for the work they do…
They’re also REQUIRED to be protected by work rules negotiated on their behalf…
They’re also REQUIRED to be paid for vacation and sick time…
And they’re REQUIRED to be offered affordable group health, life, and accident insurance,
And they’re REQUIRED to benefit from the safety and health legislations advocated on their behalf by their union… etc, etc, etc…
Other than that… I wouldn’t know what junior Flight Attendants are REQUIRED to endure… because I was never… ever a junior Flight Attendant…
And I never, ever had to endure a furlough, or miss Christmas with my family, or my daughter’s birthdays, or the passing of my mother…!
Why did I not have to experience any of that…?
It’s because I was magically hired with full seniority!
The one thing I do know is that…
NO FLIGHT ATTENDANT IS EVER “REQUIRED” TO APPRECIATE ANY… of the above mentioned benefits!
So how do you suppose any of these jobs be saved. Or do you think none of them are at risk. This is a seniority driven industry so what is your solution. I am one of the senior ones who has gone through 3 furloughs in my career with nothing. No benefits and lost seniority. Criticism is easy what is your brilliant idea
Here is an idea: apply the simple laws of economics every other corporations do. That is, jobs and promotion based on merit, while balancing costs. Not seniority based. Whether you have 30 years or one year, a flight attendant job has the exact same function with safety being the priority. The person that merits keeping that job should be the one that is the best at it. By assigning the purser as the team manager, the purser can decide who is representing united well and who should have no business providing customer service. United will be pleased to see how fast the passengers submit congratulatory notes about pleasant travel experiences. In that sense, unions are proven to be 1) counterproductive to growth and good customer service and 2) anti-capitalist in its function. The author said it right, the primary purpose of the union is to protect the jobs of employees that have the highest seniority with no regards the customer loyalty… As proven by the reaction they just took.
Not all senior flight attendants are grumpy!! There are many junior flight attendants who have very bad attitudes. They are not overpaid, infact, with everything that flight attendants have to deal with, they are definitely not paid enough. Seniority is everything in the airline industry. If you have a problem with this, you should have never became a flight attendant!!! The last hired is usually the first to be furloughed. That is what happens with any job. That is reality.
“Not all senior flight attendants are grumpy!!”
This is so true. Age or seniority is NOT necessarily an indicator of good service.
If you are one of those senior FAs who provides excellent service, I thank you Martha.
How did AFA ‘sell them out?’ The company announced 15,100 possible involuntary furloughs. With AFAs help, that number has been reduced by almost 2/3. These are unprecedented times and yes, sadly there is going to be blood in the water. The way it’s done in the airline industry is by seniority. The junior flight attendants will be placed on involuntary furlough but not for lack of effort on AFAs part.
You’re determined to bash United one way or another aren’t you? Either directly, through its employees or now through a union on the property.
Funny, most call me a United shill around here…
Matthew, thank you for giving UA junior flight attendants a voice and brining this to light.
Keep in mind when you talk about “Senior” Flight Attendants. We all top out the pay scale at 13 years. So, whether you are a 50 year Flight Attendant or a 13 year Flight Attendant, the hourly pay is the same. The Company would like those 13-year (and 12, and 11 and 10-year, etc) Flight Attendants to leave, as well. Don’t kid yourself.
For people badmouthing those above them on the Seniority List… unless you are the last person on the list, the most junior Sytem-wise, there is always someone trying to up.
Anyone hired at the airlines knew the situation the day they walked on the property. It is a seniority based career. This is not a secret.
The Corona virus has messed up everything. United doesn’t need such a large work force. Does it suck? Absolutely. Do we all wish we could wave a magic wand and make it go away? Abra ca dabra Unfortunately, that didn’t work. Do not mock those above you on the seniority list. They have paid their dues. You have not. Show some respect.
If you are PO’d… be mad at the company for not putting out all the various offers at the same time for all Flight Attendants to make an informed decision that worked best for their specific situation.
Here! Here! I have 37 years! That should be worth something! The Juniors had everything handed to them and now they cry, “It’s not fair! What about me?”. The millenials have a lot to learn about life, respect for their elders and grow up! They say that we have had our time? Sorry to say to them but find a new career. United will never hire them back. United will never have 25k flight attendants again. United had 25k flight attendants before 9/11. It took 20 years and a merge to get back to those numbers. So the Seniors, who have endured many ups and downs with the aviation business, deserve everything we have! Good luck kids!
Hey Dee. I just had some fun finding your IP address! That combined with your years of service locks in exactly who you are! Your comments are being forwarded on to management/HR. Sucks you’re too old and stupid to realize that when you comment on any webpage, you leave a digital footprint for people like me to easily find.
Happy trails in retirement! HR will be reaching out.
Someone help me. Has Dee been posting in other places?
No- there is a group of apparently”junior” employees who do not like what she is saying. They are mad at the message when she has spoken the truth, So as we see in the media- they are trying to “cancel” her. People do not know how to debate- how to use their words and stick to the issue at hand. Those making threats on this website do not realize that their “threats” are bullying as well. One is no better than the other. The company would love to get rid of all of them.
Please forward this name to me. violetteskye@hotmail.com 🙂
Here! Here! I have 37 years! That should be worth something! The Juniors had everything handed to them and now they cry, “It’s not fair! What about me?”. The millenials have a lot to learn about life, respect for their elders and grow up! They say that we have had our time? Sorry to say to them but find a new career. United will never hire them back. United will never have 25k flight attendants again. United had 25k flight attendants before 9/11. It took 20 years and a merge to get back to those numbers. So the Seniors, who have endured many ups and downs with the aviation business, deserve everything we have! Good luck kids!
How heartless to respond with such arrogance and hate to people who are losing their livelihood and access to healthcare during a pandemic.
It’s a shame you had to go through this before and one would think since you’ve been through it you’d know firsthand how devastating it is. You clearly didn’t leave the industry after 37 years, so don’t tell the #forgotten5500 to do it. Some of us love our jobs and look forward to the day we return!
Dee, I believe you need to find a new career. I have no idea why you are so upset and have such hate in your heart. You seem to have much hate and resentment for the company and the junior flight attendants. May God bless you.
Well if no one else is going to say it I’ll bite… to Dee…. Girl F you. You only have about 4-5 years of work in you anyway so maybe it’s you that should be looking for another source of income.
Sincerely,
One not with the BS
You think that with your 37yrs you would have been a little smarter in saving to be able to retire. Let’s look at the bigger picture here Dee. At any other company they would be paying you to leave with full benefits after 35yrs. You say they had six months to prepare for this, YOU HAD 37 YEARS. I believe you aren’t happy with what you do to write such nasty things about your colleagues. Why are you choosing to stay if your so unhappy? Find a company that will appreciate the time you have put in. You’re lucky their isn’t a maximum time served or age cap… YET! Best of luck.
As someone in their 50’s I would say that it’s you, Dee, that has something to learn about life. You are a flight attendant. It’s one step above from a Starbucks Barista. A good and worthy job. But one not deserving of entitlement to some sort of pedestal for time spent. How about a pedestal for merits and actually providing world class service instead of playing toy blast in the galley and complaining about passengers? How about realizing that because of the Unions the industry is now horribly positioned to weather downturns?
You should have gone back to school years ago and learned an actual skill. Not one that can be trained in a few weeks and for which you expect to be coddled like someone who actually has a real and valuable education with unique skills. You chose not to. And now you think the world owes YOU a soft landing for your laziness in life? Sounds more like YOU are the stereotypical millennial.
Let me repeat, you are a flight attendant. Not a pilot, a doctor, a scientist, or even a first responder. You are a flight attendant. Get real.
To Karen (spelled Dee) with all due respect (lying) … girl shut up . You have about a good 4-5 years of career left in you anyway, so maybe you should start looking forward towards your career as a Walmart greeter.
Stay blessed sis
You go girl!
I think Kaitlin’s message as shared above – and intended for the audience, not for this blog / all of us – is pretty dead-on given the circumstances and the incredibly limited option set that they are working with. I don’t think that this is hanging out Junior FAs at all – it is simply making the best balanced choice to help as many people as possible.
There is a broad agreement that the 5,500 is actually going to be way too few given that global travel demand is in a serious slump, and even with an effective vaccine, it is clear that there are going to be serious challenges with vaccine adoption and deployment. Even in those that agree to take the vaccine, very few want to be first in line. Net/net this is going to be challenging.
The NAL allows the airline and employee flexibility to pick up to 35h per month in trips advertised in open time, which can meet the flex capacity as demand cycles over the coming year, which it certainly will.
Sorry, Matthew, great insights much of the time, but this feels off balance.
The company and union will always cater to the senior employees. However, since the employees are required to pay union dues, and the 5500 get nothing from the concessions the union has agreed to, why should new employees be forced to pay the dues? If the union can do nothing for them, then why doesn’t the union pay for the insurance of the furloughed 5500? Don’t they have a strike fund? Don’t they have assets? Don’t say you can’t use union funds for that. You can do whatever you want, without the permission of the employees. You just proved that.
It’s not about catering to anyone. As has been pointed out here several times, it’s a Contract. That the Union was able to reduce the numbers of people who would have otherwise been involuntarily furloughed should be viewed as an accomplishment. J
Waaaah waaah, these sensationalist reports about airlines are giving me a migraine. The article sounds like it was written by an angry housewife and the comments pffff. Airlines in the USA function on seniority. Furloughs happen when sh*t happens. The company determines a seniority line and if above it, you’re safe and if below you’re not safe. That’s how it’s been since the dawn of airlines. When you take the job, you know this is a reality. It’s up to you if you choose to ignore this reality and not save up extra cash for just in case. United came up with a way to help keep more people insured that would be automatically furloughed and they simply couldn’t afford that to everybody below the line. So this is great and if you’re junior the end result is the same where being junior is simple the bottom of the barrel. So this is IVFMP. Those on IVFMP will be able to collect unemployment and if they can grab a trip or two (doubtful with such reduced flights) they can fly 35 hours (which will reduce the UI.) The involuntary will get the furlough pay and 90 days insurance and can also collect unemployment. Don’t forget to be thankful to the senior flight attendants that volunteered to become inactive and lose some benefits in order to save some junior flight attendant jobs. The airline industry isn’t easy to understand for outsiders. Some flight attendants have been furloughed several times in their career There’s nothing outrageous going on here; in fact it’s even a nicer situation than the straight out traditional furlough that happened after 9/11. The end.
Let me seriously simplify this : if I owned a company and had 10 employees when this pandemic hit and my sales became only 25% of what they used to be. So I needed to let go of 6 employees to keep in business. Do I keep all 10 employees and possibly go bankrupt or do I at least save 6 employees jobs and continue business?
The answered is also simplified. You keep The number of employees that Do the best job To keep the business running and give you as the Company owner the best value. This may mean letting go your most senior employees.
Man stay in your lane. You have no idea what’s going on at the negotiating table with AFA/UNITED. And by the way, I don’t work for United. How dare you drive a wedge between that workgroup and the union that represents them with your arrogant, wanna be expert misinformation? Are you aware that there is pandemic that has turned upside down the lives of everyone in the airline industry in particular, as well as the travel and hospitality industry as a whole. Stick to your entitled frequent flyer lane and stay out of labor’s business. People like you disgusts me.
Well the bottom people on the list are going to get it in the neck. That’sa fact of life in the airline world.
The NAL concept is deleterious to the flight attendants. It can also see more JUNIOR flight attendants jump ahead and get recalled before more SENIOR flight attendants. This is 100% wrong and should NEVER be allowed to happen.
My understanding is if you take the NAL you will be called back before someone more senior who is on involuntary furlough. Say what??? That’s disgusting.
The concept of the NAL did not exist in the provisions of our contract when we voted on it. I have a sneaking suspicion that union officers who are junior and take the NAL will benefit from it. Nothing like being in a position of power, helping negotiate a rule and therefore be able to benefit from it!!!!!
The NAL can also actually extend furloughs. Think about it, the company has a ready made pool of workers it can call upon if demand gets incrementally better.
It stinks.
Also the union has been emphasizing how important it is to keep your health care. These are the same people who support and favor the left and hailed Obamacare as a great thing. Total hypocrisy. One rule for thee but another for me….,
For the record I have worked with lazy flight attendants who junior, senior and everything in between.
Why are we all arguing on some airline fanatic/groupies diary? This information first off doesn’t concern him, so his opinions and thoughts are irrelevant to the subject at hand. Use your voices elsewhere and lets not give this “aviation groupie” any more publicity or traction on his Covid diary.
With people like Matthew Klint who needs paid union buster’s? Maybe he is paid for this anti-union drivel.
Nein. Just calling it like I see it…
Exactly. Union busting at its finest. I’m disgusted by this article. Nothing mentioned that the company refused to allow the 5500 to be in the discussion. Unbelievable. Matthew Klint is a company operative.
Robin- of course the company said no to the 5,500!! It wants everything it’sown way !! Duh!! The union could have and should have said NO!! Just because you get served a plate of dog poop doesn’t mean you have to eat it!!!!!
So, you are saying that the union should have walked away after the contractual obligation of voluntary furlough was completed. That’s it. Not fight for more to stay.
Not try to save as many as possible from losing their job AND connection to healthcare …during a pandemic.
I’m sorry that you do not understand the process.
Agreements are not one sided. The company was adamant…the new IVFMP would only be signed without the bottom 5500. Its a horrible decision to make.
Save 6000 or lose over 12000.
The fact that these old b*tches are on here talking sh*t is incredible to me. The “New” United has brought a level of service and customer satisfaction that has slowly but surely brought our scores up for half the price. I’ll dare to say that Customer satisfaction took a huge dump since these Drug addicts had to stop doing Coke in the back galley and settled there for a while. It does explain why they’re so unwilling to do actual work or is that all the xanax they have to pop mid flight to sleep ? The best part is how when they finally do work, Their Overall goal is to finish the service as quickly as possible so they can get their lazy *sses to sleep. It’s interesting that United was going to test having “Onboard” supervisors to help combat the plague of laziness and it was pushed back so damn hard that some of their dentures almost fell out of their mouth. They simply don’t want to be held accountable for the sh*t reviews united receives.
Those 50 year employees are the epitome of Selfishness and Pathetic too. You’ve had your time, leave and enjoy your damn retirement. Stop holding up jobs for young people just entering the work force you deaf c*nts. Flight Attendants should have a maximum age to work, whether that be 65 or even 70. The American public and FAA would be horrified if they saw how much of a f*cking joke our yearly “requalifications” are. Some of these feeble old ladies cant even open the f*cking doors ! much less save any passengers in the event of a crash, that’s if they don’t break in half from the impact. For that matter they don’t even remember their required commands that they’ve had 50 fucking years to practice and just get coached through like a little puppy by the instructors. F*ck you.
I know this is a tense issue, but please no vulgar language on this blog.
If you’re going to allow them to be so mouthy with their fake names, why can’t they curse? Idiots! BOTH of you!
Matthew…I am very disappointed by this biased mouthpiece for United’s most junior flight attendants. The fact is this: Come 01OCT, the company was going to involuntarily furlough approximately 13,500 flight attendants. The Letter of Agreement between AFA and the company mitigates that number substantially. Voluntary furloughs were extended to more junior flight attendants as part of the LOA. Furthermore, medical benefits and seniority accrual are being extended to the next 7,990 most junior flight attendants, should they choose to participate in the IVFMP. The bottom 5,500 flight attendants were not thrown under the bus.: They separate with 6 years of recall rights; medical benefits for 90 days; and severance pay. The more important point here is that nearly 8,000 UA flight attendants get to retain their full medical and travel benefits and will continue to accrue seniority. Obviously the cutoff had to land somewhere. AFA minimized the damage by negotiating for an additional 8,000 flight attendants to retain their vital medical benefits. That in and of itself is a significant accomplishment. AFA mitigated the pain as much as they possibly could, but in these unprecedented times, it was impossible to save everyone. Thank goodness for the furlough protection language in the collective bargaining agreement that at least provides something to those being involuntarily furloughed. Your viewpoint on this seems myopic and one-sided…and sorry to say, makes you lose credibility.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment and for making the best defense I’ve seen of the AFA actions. My only response, however, would be that you must be able to appreciate the righteous indignation of the junior FAs. Sure, they knew they were on the bottom of the totem pole, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for them to see that their union failed them here and did so in an underhanded way (with local MECs voting not to even share preliminary negotiations with FAs).
Matthew…Once again, you do not understand the process or timing of this agreement.
You blame the union for failing its most junior yet do not give credit for saving so many more.
You obviously only have the ear of a certain group and fail to see the reality of the situation we are in.
United made the choice to Significantly downsize. They were willing to listen to our union to find a way (of course, it had to be cost neutral) to save more from being pushed to the street. No job. And more important; no healthcare.
I thank my union for doing its best to save as many as possible. It’s not over yet. We’re still fighting.
Your article only incites anger. Many businesses, even some airlines, will not make it.
A more complete article would have included accurate information from all perspectives.
Where can I get a refund on my thousands of dollars that I payed into the union for nothing?
Same!
Been there , Done that. Bankruptcy, Lost Retirement, Lost Stock Ownership money. Fired. Fired again. It’s part of the business. We’re in trouble. Someone has to get layed off. There is NO CUSTOMER TO PAY FOR OUR WAGES. The Taxpayers do not want to pay us to do nothing. I don’t blame them. It’s ALL ABOUT SENIORITY! The New people go OUT THE DOOR FIRST. That is how it works. Get over it. Quit wining. All whole lot of misinformed comments here. Good luck with thaT Lawyer . I’m still laughing at that comment. Clueless about how a union works.
Get over it? Quit wining? Keep
Laughing “junkyardbuzzard.” I’ll pray for you. Be blessed.
Wow !!! And I thought we had issues in Customer Service in ORD.
Dee, hate to tell you this; the great majority of “US” United employees despise people like you !
Your work group of “senior flight attendants” are the garbage of United Airlines . I have – over the past 26 years at United seen you treat paying passengers like crap because they disturbed you while you were reading your book for a glass of water. God forbid a first class passenger on his way to Hong Kong ask for a refill on his drink ! And don’t even get me started how you treat fellow employees when we get lucky and end up in the front of the bus.
I clearly understand we work by seniority but I rather have a young flight attendant (male or female) work a flight that I’m on then a lazy piece of crap like you who will only make my and passengers flight experience horrible.
We in customer service has the same a-holes just like Dee so rest assure this flight attendant isn’t an anomaly in our ranks.
It’s a plague and one day they will be gone and it will be good riddance.
I had made peace with getting furloughed since the called backs were in seniority order. I knew my callback would eventually come. Especially since I would have furlough pay for three and a half months to help with the bills while I look for a new job/career. Now I feel like the union and the company have forced me to be their unpaid slave for 13 months because if I don’t do it I’ll be involuntarily furloughed for the foreseeable future. Gotta come up with an extra 50$ a month just for AFA even though I’m not getting paid.
This your out look on the younger union members?To bad so sad! what if it was the other way around? One day you may need one of those younger flight attendants to help you?You support and was part of selling them. flight attendants out.Secrect meeting!! Are you serious!! That ignorant Nursery rhyme is the best you can come up with? You the exact problem with the unions in America!! A Dam double agent!!! Working for the company acting like you love the union members!
What happened to JUNIOR (not younger, bc not every fa in the 5500 is “young”) is unfortunate. How could I support something that was submitted with only days to make an answer. I don’t support what AFA did. I thought that was pretty clear. The company and AFA lied to us many times about voluntary furloughs. Which I would’ve done instead of IVFMP. Slave for AFA DOESN’T mean that I support them it means they gave me no choice. Take what u will from it. If you’re part of the 5500 I’m really sorry. If you’re an internet troll, try using better grammar. Peace and love.
Every senior FA who takes the furlough saves one junior FA from being furloughed, hows that a bad thing? The program encourages senior FAs, who may not need to work to step aside and let junior FAs work, junior FAs who would be furloughed.
Anyone criticizing this is either anti union or ignorant to how things work. ♂️
This is not true. This was a concession from United to avoid more widespread job losses of mid-tier FAs, not a way to save more junior flight attendants.
Mr. Klint – you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You go right ahead and attack the messenger. It’s not a good tactic.
Since when did opinions become news? I must have missed the part in the article where both sides are logically argued from an unbiased perspective. This is not journalism, it’s sensationalism and click bait. Don’t be bait.
This is a blog, not the Associated Press.
That’s not how this works. Everyone subject to involuntary furlough (read INVOLUNTARY) can choose to stay active without pay (while continuing to pay union dues and other deductions) and no furlough pay, and if they don’t, they will be involuntarily furloughed *in addition to* the 5500, and only then will receive the furlough payout. Once recalls start, they will first recall the people in the IVF program before the people on furlough, even if they are junior. So I don’t think they just sold out the 5500 junior people; they sold out all the senior people who should be entitled to furlough pay AND recall priority based on seniority!
I’m 1K with UA and have been a frequent flyer with UA and AA for many years. I’ve had great senior FAs and great junior FAs and vice versa. Many FAs think UA pays them to be jail guards – you must obey or else. A few think their greatest calling is to make passengers feel welcome and comfortable. I think it’s clear which kind of FA passengers (who pay salaries) would prefer. Quality of service rather than seniority should be the deciding factor in who stays and who goes (after making sure they have safety down).
I’m also a frequent flyer passenger. Well written. Sadly, our preference could never happen under the current system. Union contracts with airlines do not account for customer service and loyalty. We are stuck with fear of asking for extra bread rolls when paying for an $8,000 Polaris seat.
Let’s just say based on what I see here, it helps to explain the poor service given by too many FAs. When jobs are protected by seniority over performance you get the mess you have with US airlines. The FAs posting here just adds to the poor Impression many have of FAs.
There are so many issues here and your uninformed article has brought out a lot of armchair referees to a game that has been influenced by corporate America and whiners. The employees at the bottom of any seniority list, Union or not, when the work is essentially the same, are always there first to go. The AFA tries to do the best for all it’s members in bad situations. (Remember unions were established to counter bad management.) They try to work with corporate America which always has money as its first priority. Some agreements are acceptable, some are not; it all depends on your seniority and your perspective. You, Matthew, are trying to pit people against their own union, thereby weakening labor’s position in general. We now know you’re in the pocket of at least one airline. Your anti-nion sentiments were made very clear with this article, andthose who don’t know the background of union labor jumped on board with you.
YMMV…
https://liveandletsfly.com/united-airlines-performance-bonus/
The bottom 5500 should petition to the FAA to institute a mandatory yearly and FAA supervised physical test. That would help force to retirement flight attendants that no longer have the physical capability that the job requires, are likely highly senior and cost 3x per hour more that any of the 5,500. I’ve been on numerous flight where one or more of the flight attendant were so senior, there’s no way they would be able to open, remove and lift the emergency door in case of a crash. For an industry as regulated as the airline industry, it’s not acceptable that these tests are not at a minimum independently supervised by non-United employees and/or FAA representatives. This would also help the airlines save a lot of money through lower cost work force.
There is an annual recurrent program where flight attendants have to requalify to keep working. But even if they don’t succeed in demonstrating proficiency on the day of training, they have several attempts over a course of several days to “train to proficiency.” So eventually, through repetition, they get it done and become requalified. This is a program that is overseen by the FAA, btw. So here is another design flaw with the flight attendant infrastructure as it stands right now. Until, FAA institutes a mandatory retirement age, this won’t get addressed.
The proficiency program might be overseen, sanctioned and periodically spot checked by FAA. However, it’s likely supervised by on daily basis by fellow United union employees… If it takes several attempts over the course of multiple days to “train to proficiency” a FA on a yearly test, there’s a problem. Retirement should be mandatory at 65 (like the pilots) or failure of the yearly proficiency test after 2 attempts (performed in class, no extra training days), whichever comes first.
A concerned customer and Aeronautical Engineer.
FAA should implement a retirement age of 65 for flight attendants like what they did to pilots. It’s just NOT safe for some dinosaurs to preform safety duties.
Something add to the note: AFA “threatens” one has to join AFA (pay the due) in order to keep their job as a FA of United, otherwise you will get terminated, which I think its a completely false statement AFA has been making on daily basis.
One of those 5500 Forgotten here.
First of all, I am embarrassed to read some of the comments made by my coworkers. They show no class and that speaks volume about our culture and not in a nice way.
Second- we know how seniority works. We are not mad that we are going to be furloughed it .We are mad because
– our seniors told us many times – “Do not to agree on concessions because if you guys gave up, you will give up everything that we have worked so hard to achieve in our contract. Once we gave up, we don’t know how far that will go. Let’s stay United!” We agreed.
– the AFA promised – We hear you- no concessions
– then the company offers a side deal that actually ignores the contract and AFA excepts it but doesn’t includes those 5500 people.
– The seniors stopped screaming No Concessions, accepted the deal , started bashing us and our work performance. …and that was that
So we felt betrayed by the company , by the AFA and by our seniors because we were offered no deal , no options at all and we learned that our contract is useless. So really, who can be safe from now on if we can change things with side letters?
All the groups but the 5500 are happy because they got what they wanted:
-United doesn’t have to pay our seniors involuntary furlough money
-Seniors are happy because they can keep their health insurance and they can keep being active employees
-AFA is happy because they saved many jobs.
The company didn’t even offered us a travel benefits or delay in recalling which is not going to cost them anything. The AFA didn’t negotiate that either.
Juniors are also the people who worked during the pandemic when most of the seniors stayed home (being afraid of their health which is understandable.)
Many Juniors also took COLA( unpaid leave of absence during the pandemic) to help the company reduce costs when was hard on many of them based on their financial situation. But they sacrificed.
Very low number of seniors took the voluntary furlough option ( it’s a temporary- for 8 or 13 months) and that was another option for them to safe more juniors.
All the other big airiness companies seemed to manage the reduction of their personal much better because the management and the employees worked better as a team.
All those reasons above makes us feel forgotten. They tell us that our only option is to pray for the extension of the CARE act.
Why we would hope the CARE act will save us when our management, AFA and our co workers didn’t CARE about us…
I appreciate and empathize that you are, “One of those 5500 Forgotten”…
I also appreciate that you understand “how seniority works!”
Unfortunately, it appears you don’t understand much after that!
The basis for your misunderstanding is the fact that both AFA and the company had fully complied with the terms and requirements of Section 18 of our contract regarding “Reduction in Personnel” PRIOR TO negotiating the IVFMP … which is a legally negotiated Letter of Agreement (LOA) reached only AFTER those contractual obligations had been fulfilled! The LOA was accomplished for the sole purpose of mitigating (the “M” in IVFMP!) the inevitable furlough of as many as TWELVE THOUSAND JUNIOR Flight Attendants… from bottom up, as per the contract… if nothing further was agreed to! And to address your issues…
1. The agreement in no way makes the current contract “useless”!
2. The agreement is not “giving up,” or a “concession” of anything in our contract!
3. The agreement does not negate our ability negotiate even better terms in a future contract!
4. And while “seniors” may be the only ones with the opportunity to accept the offer, the agreement does not benefit any “seniors” at the exclusion of any “juniors!”
5. Finally, the fact the membership was not offered an opportunity to vote on the agreement was not a denial of our rights, or a lack of transparency… it was “business as usual” under the urgent timeframe of the situation… something that happens often under such circumstances!
I’m sure you’d appreciate more detailed explanations to clarify all of the above, which you are certainly entitled to… so, rather than be mad about anything (aside from the unfortunate inevitability of being furloughed)… go spend some time in your local AFA office, and ask your LEC Officers. The question is… are you willing to accept and understand those explanations, or will you simply argue and complain against them?
However, here’s a quick perspective of the situation for you to consider…
1. The entire plan must be cost neutral; meaning it can’t cost the company any more than their original plan to furlough 12,000… so, the bean counters are in control… all AFA can do is monitor the numbers for accuracy, and advocate how the beans are shuffled around to the benefit of ALL affected Flight Attendants!
2. IF NO EFFORT WAS MADE… i.e. no IVFMP had been negotiated and agreed to… it was inevitable that as many as TWELVE THOUSAND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS WOULD BE LAID OFF! PERIOD!! As in…
a) Out on the street (so to speak!), with…
b) No possibility of income from UAL
c) No availability of group health, dental, vision or life insurance!
d) No seniority accrual
e) No vacation accrual
f) No travel benefits… etc, etc, etc…!
FOR TWELVE THOUSAND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS!
So please riddle me this…
HOW is the fact that this IVFMP reduces the number of furloughed Junior Flight Attendants by OVER 50%, such a bad deal??? Meaning that SIX THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED MORE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS now have at least the possibility of…
a) NOT being “on the street”
b) At least some income from UAL
c) Access to group health, dental, vision and life insurance
d) Seniority accrual
e) Vacation accrual
f) Travel benefits… etc, etc, etc…!
All for the specific benefit of retaining more junior Flight Attendants…
I’m just asking’… 1 of 5,500 … I’d be interested in hearing your response!
Bottom line.
Divide and conquer. Big business wins.
The “line” is no longer sacred. Might as well cross it when the opportunity presents.
As a junior FA I do no support the union because they are more interested into politcorrect biznis than getting things done. I left the union months ago. Good article, author dont pay attention to negative comments, since no flys fas have too much time on their hands and not much else to do.
Your comment, Jimmy…
Reminds me of the story of ‘the emperor’s new clothes!’
All pomp, ceremony, and bloviation… but no substance!
Good for you! Enjoy being downtown… naked!
Wow. Glad I am not booked on United in the near future. Jump seats and galleys are going to be quite the cage fight over the next few weeks. MMFA.
‘Murika! Where the plebs have gotten so well indoctrinated that they viciously fighting amongst themselves over the scraps, while giving a complete free pass to their supposedly democratically elected but actually bought-and-paid-for representatives in Congress who are laughing all the way to the bank and the golf course along with their Big Corporate patrons, maybe doing a little insider trading off intelligence briefings for some extra bonus for themselves, legislative carve-out exempting Congressmen no longer not withstanding.
While I do understand the extreme struggles United and all the other airlines are facing, I do not agree with the decision that AFA has agreed upon with United Airlines.
Jr union members/seniority members had no say but they are paying union dues? Yes, everything has to do with seniority in this industry but these Jr FA’s make way less than senior mamma’s so I would assume that United would want to keep them employed.
All around this is a very hard time for both the company and the employees.
Fly safe everyone!
Isn’t this illegal? How can the union have only select members vote? I would think legally all paying union members should be voting. I hope the 5500 get a labor union lawyer. The fa’s pay a mandatory $50 per month for having to be in the union. I totally understand the seniority part, but the union is there to represent every paying member regardless. That means the union should be forthcoming to their paying members and voting is for all paying members.
Emotions set aside let’s look at the legalities. I vote for getting a union labor lawyer 5500 if necessary! Thank you for shedding light on this Matthew Klint.
You bring up some good points, Damiza…
Unfortunately, most of them are full of holes!
While a union has a legal obligation (called the Duty of Fair Representation) to represent their members to the best of their abilities, there is no expectation… that all members will receive exactly the same benefits as every other member! Take the almost universally accepted graduated pay scale for example, as well as the current instance of the order of involuntary furlough! SOMEBODY has to be at the bottom of the list… and in most all unions… those “somebodies” are the junior people who’ve been doing the job for the least amount of time… or… “how long have you been pushing a cart, vs how long have I been pushing a cart?”
I can’t tell if you’re a UAL Flight Attendant or not… but AFA is duly authorized by the current Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and by its own Constitution and By-laws to reach such agreements on behalf of its members… refer to Sec.1.A of your agreement for confirmation of that. Also, look at Sec.3.Q. to see the rights the company has that AFA has to contend with.
And just an FYI… there is no law that a union is ‘required’ to present any agreement, CBA or otherwise, to the membership for ratification… Their Executive boards can simply agree to and sign an agreement on behalf of their membership! I’m fairly certain AFA is not one of those, but there is nothing that requires they do either. Just to put the whole “representation” thing into perspective.
And finally… I’d like to caution you, and all readers, to consider the source of their information before coming to any conclusions. I say that because you thanked Matthew Klint for “shedding light” on this issue. I don’t thank him for anything, because all I see he’s done is stir the pot with half-truths and misdirection… leading to divisiveness and confusion amongst OUR fellow employees and co-workers… while he gets to go on his merry little way on consulting jobs on Capitol Hill, and in the White House… (hmmm, I wonder what THAT means!). In other words … Matthew Klint has no ‘skin’ in our game… which means in my book that unless he can show otherwise… he has no knowledge or credibility to speak on our matters!
I am absolutely astounded by the ignorant* understanding people have, including you Matthew, regarding the responsibilities and abilities of a union!
*not meant to be derogatory, but rather as defined by Webster simply as, “unaware of the facts”…
Let’s lay out the groundwork…
United announced the potential layoffs… read, involuntary furloughs… of ALMOST TWELVE THOUSAND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS due to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. And, as is normal under most all labor agreements, they have the right to do exactly that after following possible contractual obligations such as offering voluntary furloughs.
AFA, following its own obligations, negotiated terms with the company to reduce that number down to possibly only 5,500 involuntary furloughs! That’s a potential reduction of over 6,500 Flight Attendants, or 54% of those who would otherwise LEGITIMATELY be out on the street with NO job, NO income, NO healthcare, NO travel benefits, etc, etc… and barely left with a pot to piss in! While this agreement preserves at least some possibility of the above! Yet, y’all are complaining that either AFA or the company are not doing their jobs to protect workers! What the heck would you like them to do?
It seems like you’re not satisfied with a glass that’s either half empty or half full… y’all are insisting on having the whole damn glass…! Or as per that old adage, “You want your cake, and eat it too!” Well… guess what…? Not everyone gets a participation ribbon!
Aside from advocating for its members, AFA has no real leverage to FORCE the company to do anything beyond the contract! And, aside from OFFERING voluntary furloughs, the company is not obligated to protect ANY jobs!
I think it’s pretty amazing they’ve been able to work together to ‘protect’ as many Flight Attendant jobs as they have! And while there are unfortunate casualties in any workforce reduction… it’s simply a fact of life that those at the bottom of the seniority list are the first affected… as many of us have experienced and lived through at least once in our careers! IT’S NOT A FAULT OR FAILURE OF THE UNION… as many have so readily claimed as they throw them under the bus… a behavior we’ve unfortunately witnessed so publicly and casually practiced over the last few years!
And Matthew… as the author of this extremely ignorant* and biased article… for you to respond to Jon’s well thought out and presented comment with such an arrogant and dismissive, “Sure Jon, dream on…” only means you have nothing intelligent or worthwhile to contribute, but to simply fulfill your desire to stir the pot of divisiveness for some reason (which for now, I won’t expose!). And, as another commenter said, you should just “stay in your own lane!”
That was not his point. Matthew is simply highlighting the inequity that lies in this side letter, while also pointing out that it benefits many flight attendants who are at mid-tier seniority….many of them who hold positions in loval council. Call it out as you will, but AFA’s infrastructure needs those union dues to stay afloat and they found a way to accomplish keeping the coffers full while saving their own officers.
Trust me, you might not like what he wrote, but many flight attendants at UA feel Matthew did an excellent job writing this story and covering an issue that would otherwise have been swept under the rug.
If Klint’s article is held up as an example of “an excellent job of writing… and covering an issue that would otherwise have been swept under the rug…” then it’s no wonder America is in such trouble, and is so easily being led down the primrose path…!
Because this article is nothing more than a corporate/political hack job, meant to create confusion, dissatisfaction, and division amongst the Flight Attendant work group, pitting one fellow employee against another, and to discredit AFA in its efforts to minimize the devastation not of its own creation!
This article, and its author would not be successful in any of those intended goals, if more of us had the wisdom to ignore them both!
Don’t attack the messenger Raul…
I’m not worried about the messenger, Matt… believe me! I’m worried about the message!
Because you’re doing a terrible job of not only comprehending it… but of accurately conveying it as well…!
Tell me Matt… what do you really know of corporate/union labor relations anyway? And why do you think you’re qualified to voice your opinion on our situation in the first place? Orrr… Does it not have anything to do with our situation at all… and is merely a vain, “It’s all about me” effort at gaining attention?
And in spite of professing to the readers here that you are a bearer of wisdom and warning… yours are the actions of nothing more than an insidious mole!
And I think that in some perverted way…
That somehow helps you sleep at night!
I don’t have any skin in this game, but get annoyed at the argument that layoffs in order of seniority is “just the way it is..”
Other things that used to be “just the way it is..” but are now wrong and/or illegal.
Slavery, racial discrimination, gender discrimination, sexual harassment, homophobia, transphobia, littering, pollution.
You don’t have any skin in this game, Steven…
Yet you feel compelled to voice an opinion that has no relevance to the situation…!
That seems a bit like a football player explaining the intricacies of vocalizing to an opera singer…
Meaning… you have no idea about the way things are or used to be, or whether they’re right or wrong, or especially…. DRAMATIC DRUMROLL PLEASE… “Slavery, racial discrimination, gender discrimination, sexual harassment, homophobia, transphobia, littering, pollution.”
Good God, Man… Stay in your own lane, and stay out of ours!
Just wanted to check the triggers here.
If you folks talking back at Matthew focused as much not on your political agenda but on writing your resumes, you would be much happier.
Thank you for reading. See you in the friendly skies when you frown when I ask for 2 drinks.
Thanks, Jimmy…
It’s passengers with smug, arrogant attitudes like yours that make me spill drinks! Oooops!
Thanks for reading, and see you in the friendly skies when I offer you a towel to dry off!
WITH a smile and a profuse apology, of course!
Raul, sounds like you are an elected union official who gets to keep his senority job! Good to know you were one of the selected ones that got a vote. We all can’t wait to hear your next quip.
Don’t make ignorant assumptions, Damiza…
Because given your track record… you’d inevitably be wrong…
As you are in this case! Quip! Quip!!
This is the first and last Matthew Klint article I will read. He is uninformed yet opinionated on this topic and rudely dismissive of professionals working at United who comment with facts. He’s done a hack job here on the UA flight attendant union.
That’s your prerogative, but I’ve defended the AFA is many stories over the years. I don’t censor comments beyond profanity and I am pleased to engage in discussion and admit when I am wrong. Here, though, my focus was not on attacking AFA or trying to divide flight attendants as much as it was to expose the anger I have been hearing from many junior flight attendants that their union has failed to advocate for them by at least being transparent or putting the deal up for a vote. Their anger is reasonable, even if that is how the system works.
The anger is obvious. Matt… and needs no exposing!
You fail to comprehend the underlying reasons for that anger, or where it’s truly coming from, and you lack the knowledge and experience to know how to address it! Instead you simply feed it! That’s not productive in any sense… nor is it honorable!
Good for you… You must be aiming to be our next President!
Raul, it sounds like we hit a nerve with you…..sorry you sound offended. I wish we could continue to debate with you, but you’re not able to do that without deflecting and being part of the problem instead of the solution. I will ask once again, just like the article focuses on – Why weren’t all paying $50 a month union members allowed to vote? Pretty simple question if you stick to the facts without deflecting.
You’re absolutely right, damiza…
My nerves get hit when people with no real knowledge of a situation, lazily make ignorant and unaccountable comments and accusations, and spread unsubstantiated lies and conspiracies such as we’re seeing not only on this board, but in life in general… the political arena in particular!
Far too often they are merely knee-jerk emotional reactions to a situation, rather than any kind of thoughtful or constructive contribution to the discussion! And I have no problem calling out those ignorant, knee-jerk reactions! Just because someone has an opinion, and a right to voice it, doesn’t mean that opinion is a valid one… or relevant, or even worthy of being offered! You know what they say opinions are like… and everyone has one!
I know far too often I say things without thoroughly or critically thinking them through! That’s exactly what I’m talking about, and a ‘bad on me.’ However, I also know my eyes and mind are open to a large spectrum of the situation being discussed vs being “narrow minded.” I try to offer positive suggestions toward resolving problems, and accurate, well-researched explanations when I see erroneous information or misunderstood concepts. And… I’m willing to recognize, acknowledge, and admit to my own misunderstandings and misplaced anger and accusations!
And so… for exactly those reasons… I believe I’m at least on the constructive side of a discussion, rather than being a “part of the problem” as you suggested… unlike so much of what we witness!
As for your question about not being allowed to vote on this issue…
Which by the way… I feel is an abdication of your own responsibility… because, why are you asking me this question, when you have exactly the same resources and ability as I have to discover the answer for yourself…? Yet… you chose instead to make derogatory comments and accusations against AFA before even making that effort! THAT is a perfect example of what gets on my nerves!
However, I digress…
Previously, I explained that AFA IS NOT REQUIRED to present every single issue to the membership for a vote… $50 dues or not! Sec.1.A. of our agreement clarifies that! It’s a bit like our Republic form of government… even though we all pay taxes… we don’t all get to vote on each and every law that comes down the pike!
While AFA brings many issues to us for a vote, they’re usually major things like a contract, and where there’s at least minimal time for an educational Q & A session. This is not that! This was an emergency issue that needed immediate attention and resolution… it couldn’t wait for an educational Q&A, or a vote… or the opportunity would’ve passed us by and not been available or of benefit to anyone!
So, having said all that, and recognizing that I’m a bit “on my nerves” … and without trying to “deflect” … here is my equally simple answer to your “pretty simple question.”
First… Understand it! Then… Get over it! And even, if you’re up for it… Pass it on!
I think that you’ve been listening to some of the wrong people. Your blog is widely read by workers in the industry (the unions). Some of the junior people may have written to you with their opinions. But, being angry at losing a job under these conditions is not reasonable. It’s emotional.
No argument is being made in this post – it’s just a visceral insult to those who will survive this purging. “Why should I get furloughed and not you?” It’s understandable that some people will respond to job losses imposed by a company by hating those who get to stay. But, it’s not reasonable. It’s also not a justification for age discrimination, or for overturning a fair and impartial seniority system.
Everything is done by seniority at airlines. Everything. Down to lunch breaks. The job is hard, and you start out with very little ability to control things like your days off, work area, or hours. But, over time, you build up these things. Make it in the industry long enough, and you get better pay, better job security, better shifts, better everything. It’s completely fair and predictable, and everyone knows how it works. Even the junior agents that wish they could have the things that senior agents have without putting the time in.
(If any junior agents are reading this, please don’t take it as an insult to you. If you think that your job may be at risk, blame the pandemic and the anti-maskers. Please take five minutes and write or call your Senator and tell them your story.)
Matthew Clit has a hardon for United
What a helpful comment. Thanks Mike!
I said this before! If FAA impose a cut off age for Flight Attendants, we wouldn’t be having this problem. Senior folks are slowing down the cycle of the work force, where they are still struggling to fly and work, and we have young folks trying to get into the work force. This cycle need to run more freely. This is not discriminating, it’s just how it should be! Senior folks are not giving our young generation a chance to be responsible because if they don’t leave, they airline will not hire.
Your logic seems to fancifully suit you, LanceLott!
But riddle me this…
If all the “senior” (old) Flight Attendants were forced to leave the job by mandatory retirement…
That means the current junior FAs (you?) would then be the senior ones…
And that other (younger?) FAs would be the new junior ones… Right?
Which would put them… in your current position… of inappropriately complaining that they are simply “young folks trying to get into the workforce” but they can’t because the “Senior folks are slowing down the cycle of the workforce,” which, “needs to run more freely” and poor me, I’m being sacrificed to the furlough… all for the benefit of senior FAs… who should be forced to get out of the way, and “give our young generation a chance to be responsible,” and blah, blah, blah… and just who do you think “those senior folks would be… THEY WOULD BE YOU! How does THAT feel?
But that’s just simple logic and rational thinking, so… silly me… never mind!
However, the really, really, astounding perspective in your post is the fact that you believe, for some narcissistic reason, that you actually have an inherent and superior right to have a job above and before someone who has had that job long before you… and also… that you actually have the right to push those “senior folks” out of the job they’ve spent years earning… simply because in your mind, they are “slowing down the workforce,” and that’s “just how it should be!”
Where the HECK do you come off thinking like that?
Here’s a newsflash for you LanceLott…
This is not Camelot, and Guinevere will never be waiting for you just on the other side of the rainbow…! This is the real world… where you gain your position the old-fashioned way…
You have to earn it!
It’s also a place where participation trophies are NOT awarded! Sorry!
Matthew, first thank you for taking the time to respond to the comments here. That is rare. There’s a lot of outrage over your post. That’s happening because you are arguing against an action that will save thousands of jobs – not just a few thousand. And, you are simultaneously insulting the FAs who saved those jobs by saying they ‘sold out’ their coworkers.
You point out that seniority in the airlines isn’t fair just because it has a long tradition. That logic is axiomatic. Nobody is arguing against it. However, you seem to think that there is an alternative. What could that possibly be? Should the FAs who have spent decades in loyal service to this industry go home first? Should furloughs be randomized, so that years of experience and dedication are completely worthless? I suspect that you would prefer the furloughs to be based on ‘job performance.’ We all know that ‘job performance’ is code for ‘supervisor’s pets.’ In an industry so dominated by women, I hope I don’t have to elaborate on how a few male supervisors would make their selections, or what some FAs would be willing to do in order to impress their supervisors and save their careers.
To an outsider such as yourself, seniority may look cold or heartless. It isn’t. It’s a simple, fair system by which every single aspect of aviation is structured. If there aren’t enough hours, junior agents get cut first. You work your way up. If there aren’t enough slots for everyone that wants their vacation on Xmas, the senior agents get those weeks off and junior agents get less prestigious vacation dates. Your pay goes up with your seniority. Stay in the job long enough, and you will one day get weekends off. This is basic, long-standing, and fair.
Your idea that this well-known, accepted and fair tradition is “selling out” will enrage everyone in the industry and make you look clueless. Did I “sell out” my coworkers when I bid a work shift that I couldn’t hold as a new-hire? Am I “selling out” my coworkers when I get a raise or premium shift pay for working a sweet late-night shift that everyone wants? No, of course not. But, your post here has profoundly insulted nearly everyone in the entire aviation industry who have spent their entire careers not selling out.
Thank you for your comment Eric. My only response is that would it have been so unreasonable for the AFA to put this up for vote? Was it simply impossible for the sacrifice to have been spread out so all workers were partially protected or was that just something that was off-the-table for those who had already “put in the time” and were unwilling to accept any further cuts?
Sarah Nelson is a villainous figure within organized labor, leading her group on raids of other union members… a betrayal that has weakened the standing of thousands of FAs within the AFL-CIO. She overreaches often, and this is another example of her leadership style. It alienates people.
No, it would not have been hard to put this measure up for a vote. That is what we would have done on the ramp and gate-side, but we are a different union. Facing furloughs as well, we agreed amongst each other that we should stick to the contract that we had already agreed to – instead of backroom dealmaking. When a member has a question about what we would all be doing together as a union, “read your contract” was the stock answer. The contract, ratified by the full membership, calls for furloughs and other reductions in force to be applied according to seniority rules (of course). It was voted on, in other words, in our case. No backroom dealing and no sudden changes of plans that needed to be communicated or debated.
But, that was how our union handled the furloughs. To stick to the original contract, and try to negotiate the best buyouts possible from the company… and of course to lobby like hell to get paycheck assistance from Congress. Doing this has led to many thousands of voluntary leaves and no involuntary furloughs at all so far.
So, I have to back you up when you argue that there was a better way to handle the situation. Our union obviously agrees with you. If Nelson had taken this same advice there would almost certainly be a better outcome.
I was initially interested in reading your comments and perspectives, Eric…
About how Sara Nelson is a “villainous figure” in the labor community, and how unfairly and ineffectively AFA handled this IVFMP, etc, etc… when I realized exactly who was making those comments! You’re an IAM member!!! Okay… now I get it! And once I understood that, I had myself a really, really, yuuugely good laugh!
Now, I usually refrain from disparaging other unions, especially those on UAL property… because we should all be supporting each other, and having each other’s backs, right? I mean, that’s the definition of what unions do, right? Unfortunately, based on my personal experiences with IAM, I don’t hold them in that high level of esteem!
I realize I’m going back to the middle ages for this example of when I first became an IAM member, however I’m pretty certain the situation hasn’t changed all that much since then.
At that time, IAM represented four work groups, all under a single contract; the Mechanics, who during contract negotiations, usually got most of everything they were asking for; Ramp Service, who got much of what they wanted; Cabin Service got a little of what they wanted; and Kitchen Workers barely got anything they wanted… if they were lucky!
Even as a new union member, that never seemed right to me, because of my apparently naïve belief that a union is supposed to represent ALL their members equally… meaning that all four work groups should have gotten a relatively equal ratio of benefit from the negotiations. But that was not the way it worked in IAM… whose obvious and accepted perspective was the very clear and preferential hierarchy as described above!
Then I started flying and experienced the differences between how AFA operates… and IAM. Those differences became very clear during the AFA/IAM representation campaign following the merger of Continental and United.
I’ve always advocated for and been proud of AFA’s honesty and transparency with its members. It hasn’t always been that way, but it’s definitely been and is improving over the last 20 years or so!
Having said that, I was very proud of the integrity AFA showed during that representation campaign, as compared to the dishonesty and lack of integrity showed by IAM… who regularly took vilely inaccurate and low shots at AFA, intentionally spreading lies and misinformation about them (us) to Flight Attendants in both unions… and even displaying an obvious ignorance at their VP level of the federally mandated legal rights unions have in their fight to represent members against the aggression and authority of corporate America… rights that directly affect a unions ability to negotiate the best terms possible on behalf of their members! The difference meant that AFA is able to take advantage of those rights, vs IAMs inability to take advantage of them!
I realize those all might sound like very suspect and conspiratorial accusations against IAM… however, I have no need or desire to make up stuff like that… it’s simply true… and verifiable!
So, I found it more that amusing to read how your union shoulda, woulda, coulda handled the current furlough situation differently than AFA… and you definitely did! But that in absolutely no way means IAM handled it any better than AFA!
In fact, from what you described, it seems IAM took the absolutely easiest path of least resistance available and stayed within the confines of a contract negotiated years ago. And apparently failed to take advantage of any opportunities the company may have been willing to entertain about furloughs of your membership in the current situation!
Way to go…! I’m sure all your members are extremely satisfied with the efforts y’all made to go out of your way to ensure their best interests! Or NOT!!!
And don’t even get me started on your completely inaccurate and misleading representation of Sara Nelson’s leadership at AFA… because again… you have absolutely no credibility in what you’re talking about! And I’d be happy to go mano-a-mano with you in a discussion about that!
Again, I have to say, Matthew…
How advantageous it would be for someone (you!) to have even the most minimal comprehension of how an organization such as a union, and their relationship with a company actually works BEFORE making the ignorant comments and accusations that you do, not only in your article, but also here on your discussion board as well!
As it is, if you had made even the slightest effort to become educated on this issue, you would have easily become aware of the fact that the time frame from when UA first announced the intended furlough of 12,000 Flight Attendants and the time they needed a solution was only a matter of a few days! That’s far too short of the time required to negotiate the best deal possible… plan and execute a responsible education program so the membership of 25,000 can actually understand what they are voting on (what a concept, and a massively more complex task than you can comprehend!)… then hold a fair election accommodating all of those 25,000 members and their diverse schedules and global geographic locations! Simple, right? Should be no problem putting all that together in just a couple of days, right?
And that’s just regarding your misunderstanding of this one issue of bringing the agreement to a vote of the membership… it doesn’t even include your comprehension, or lack thereof, of the agreement itself!
But, I realize none of the above is your concern… because, hey… you have no skin in this game… and you can just slip off into the night and do whatever else it is that you do… and ultimately all you’re really concerned about is convincing your readers to believe that whatever you have to say makes you appear important and smart, like someone who actually knows what you’re talking about… which unfortunately for you and them, and in this case, 25,000 Flight Attendant… you don’t!
There was no way to reply to ‘oldbatsgottago!’ comment…
(And after reading this, I hope y’all will join me in asking… gee, I wonder why?)
But here are just a few choice quotes from the post…
“Yeah well some of these “senior mommas” need to give it up.”
“Noone wants to be served in the air by an old hag.”
“How about you guys get furloughed and let the younger ones get a shot.”
So, Old Bat…
It must be fun for you to have your smug little arrogant and insensitive attitude while you write the vitriol you did about your fellow human beings… NOW… TODAY…!!
But you know, OLD BAT… Karma’s a bitch!
And from your comments, it can’t come soon enough for me… but it will catch up with you in the end…
When YOU’RE AN OLD HAG!
In the meantime… (although I know I don’t have the right to speak for others, but…) we all hope you’ll keep your crude, rude and misogynistic comments to yourself!
Something sounds a little off. It seems like the use of the term “sells out” assumes that the union just threw the bottom 5500 under the Airbus without even trying to save them. I was not involved in the negotiations so I’m not sure what actually transpired, however, it would seem to me that it would financially be in the best interests of the union to save the bottom 5500, actually save as many people as possible. If the union just up & “sold out” the bottom 5500 without even trying to save them, the union would be just up & throwing away $275,000 per month of dues for an undetermined amount of time. That’s a lot of money per month to lose for an organization that depends so strongly on membership dues. It just seems like it would behoove the union to do their best to save as many people’s jobs as possible (or to at least keep them connected to their health benefits even part-time) so as to maintain their membership dues. Now, the company, on the other hand, seems like they would be at the highest financial advantage to NOT have to pay out salaries or health/fringe benefits to the most number of people that would still allow them to operate as efficiently & effectively as an airline as possible. But, of course, this article wasn’t about that. My understanding of the job of any union is to save the jobs of its membership (or again, in the event of this pandemic, at least keep them connected to their health benefits). If the only option agreed upon by the company & the union was this other program that saved approximately 6500 instead of involuntarily furloughing almost 12,000 employees, doesn’t the agreed upon option become the only option??? Sounds like the company possibly tied the hands of the union if the company would not agree to any other option that would include possibly saving any more employees or the rest of the 5500.
Something else – both industry analysts & management of the airlines have been saying for months now that more than likely the companies will be smaller coming out of this pandemic & for the foreseeable future. If that’s true, the companies will be doing their best to reduce the size of the workforce within their contractual parameters. There is only so much even the unions can do about this, especially if the companies are determined to do this & can do this legally & contractually.
I’ve been in the airline industry for almost 30 years now, and even though I’m not a United Airlines flight attendant, I am represented by another union in the airline. Let me first start off by saying I understand how the 5,500 flight attendants who are below the red line feel. However , this article and the criticism of the action taken by the AFA is unwarranted.
What people have to understand is in the U.S, airline industry seniority unfortunately rules. What this article fails to mention is that many of those people who are higher in seniority have already been where these junior FA’s now find themselves. Unfortunately involuntary furloughs are a part of the airline industry. In fact many of those senior FA’s have been furloughed at least once in there career. In fact most people who have been in this industry any length of time have been furloughed at some point during their career. I myself have been furloughed twice in my almost 30 year career.
A lot of the FA’s that the AFA saved from furlough were probably furloughed for a few years after 9/11. Some of them may have even been furloughed during the Great Recession of 2008/09.
What bothers me is the sense of entitlement and the expectations the new hires come into this industry with. If you are going to work in the airline industry and if you are thinking about making this your career choice you need to understand there is an ebb and flow to this industry. When the economy is great airlines benefit as do their employees, however when the economy tanks airline have to respond which results in layoffs. Also what this article and many of the comments failed to mention or understand are the sacrifices and struggles made by those senior FA’s. Out of all of the U.S. carriers including those that are nonunion UA’s FA’s have some of the best work rules in the U.S. industry, some of the highest paid FA’s in the industry. United Airlines didn’t just give this to the AFA they had to fight for it. All of the benefits and pay that those junior FA’s enjoyed during the good times was bought and paid for with the blood, sweat, and tears or many senior FA’s. I know because it is the same for the union that I’m in, we fought hard to get the contracts we have that many junior employees simply take for granted and seem to think we should just give up to sacrifice so they can keep their job.
If there is one thing airline unions learned from the aftermath of 9/11 it is this you don’t give up anything. You fight to keep your pay, vacation, work rules, benefits and you fight to keep as many people employed as possible but you don’t give up anything. The reason for that is because once you give it up is it nearly impossible to get it back. There are benefits, vacation, work rules that were sacrificed willingly after 9/11 and the company still to this day still refuses to reinstated. The sad part is we were still laid off even after agreeing to the companies demands, they still laid off.
It may seem like the union is shafting you, but trust me take from a person who has been furloughed twice in my career, you will get a call back to return to work. The AFA has found a way to save over 6,000 FA’s jobs and they have don’t that without giving up base pay, vacation, benefits or work rules. The price to save over 11,000 FA jobs would be a steep one. I’m sure United Airlines would quickly agree to such terms that would save all FA’s jobs and the 5,500 junior FA’s would be happy, at least for a while, that is until the economy recovers. Then you would go back to negotiate with United and say we want our pay, vacation, generous work rules, and benefits back, we want restoration for our sacrifices. United would acknowledge restore some, but not all that was given up. Only then in that moment that moment would you realize the mistake made but by then it is to late to reverse course.
Everyone wants to talk about shared sacrifice but what they don’t understand is we already made the sacrifice. Now we are fighting to protect it, not only for ourselves but for those junior employees and for future generations.
Regarding comments related to this info should have been put to a vote & this info should have been common knowledge. The unions, in their bylaws, reserve the right to make decisions for the membership that they feel is in the best interests of the membership without putting said topic to a vote of the membership. With that being said, I do agree that all information should be available (transparency) to the membership so that they may make informed decisions (to take/not take voluntary furlough, for example). But we must be careful what we wish for. I do know for a fact that many flight attendants, had they known about this other mitigation program, would have taken out their voluntary furlough bid. (Many wanted to be able to maintain their flight benefits both with the company & offline, was one complaint.) If too many senior flight attendants took out their voluntary furlough bid, that bottom 5500 may have turned into the bottom 7500, or worse, bottom 10,000 under the decision of management. This certainly would have made the union’s job to save as many jobs as possible, all the more impossible. Many flight attendants, from the extremely junior to the extremely senior, voiced their opinions that they would not be willing to give any concessions (mainly out of fear that once you give something up, you never get it back). These concessions would have been that “shared sacrifice” mentioned by others. Unfortunately, if not enough, junior or senior, are willing to concede (not that anyone should have to), the company will get it another way. The company threatened to furlough 15,100. With too few voluntary furloughs, employees are then stuck with involuntary furloughs. That came close to 12,000. The union did their best to save as many jobs as possible when the vocal majority of outspoken junior & senior folks chose not to give anything up. If there was only 1 option on the negotiating table that the company & union could agree upon, it becomes the best, worst, & only option. With this unfortunate set of circumstances, the union was only successful to then save approximately 6500 more jobs. One can argue that the company sold out the bottom 5500. One can also argue that employees are often times their own worst enemies (by choosing no concessions). Maybe the union wasn’t the ones to sell out the bottom 5500. Maybe, given this pandemic, no one was truly sold out. A union is only as strong as its membership. But the reality is, if the majority is not willing to concede anything something else has to happen. And it did.
Some employees feel the union did the wrong thing (did not maintain transparency) for the right reasons (saving as many jobs as possible, approximately 12,000 vs 5500), as if the union had absolute control over this decision. The quintessential “Heinze Dilemma”! It certainly would have been easier to just involuntarily furlough the bottom 12,000. Where’s King Solomon when you need him?
The article’s focus is on why all paying union members weren’t allowed to vote.
If the person who wrote this article had read the bylaws they would understand why there was no vote. They would also understand when a vote is necessary and when the Union has the right to make a decision that is in the best interest of a majority of its membership. What the union has does is it made a decision to save over 6,000 jobs and it did so without any concessions.
One thing I try to instill in every new hire I meet is they need to read the entire contract, and not just focus on the parts that deal with pay, vacation, benefits, and work rules. Anyone who has been in this industry knows the devil is in the details. People need to read the entire contract and after they’ve read it the first time they need to go back read it again. I think it is necessary just to make sure they have a complete understanding of the entire document. This entire article is completely unwarranted and many of the comments left (if they are from UA FA’s) showcase that many of them did not read the contract in its entirety and do not understand the AFA’s bylaws.
Here, Here!! UnionsWork!!
I haven’t read the AFA bylaws and do not know if they were correctly implemented. If they were, then the matter was, in fact, “put up to a vote” and was essentially ratified when the bylaws were. I would prefer that something like this would have been voted on directly.
I agree with everything you’ve written here, and appreciate your calm and sober tone. I want to add one more point.
The senior agents are not coming out of all this unscathed. The ones that we are talking about are just people that survived this RIF. They are not villains. Many, many thousands of senior agents have taken premature retirements – something that will reduce their income for the rest of their lives. If compared to the thousands of junior agents that will be furloughed, they are taking on greater risk. The junior agents being furloughed here can still work, can still draw unemployment, and can still return to work. The thousands of senior agents that have taken buyouts may not qualify for any of that.
It’s not like the senior agents didn’t also draw straws.
Again, thanks for your comments.
I’ll second everything Turbojet1 covers in his response here. In short though, its always been the rule that it is ‘last hired, first laid off” in times of that necessity. And it is that firm rule that has been implemented here. It’s never been any secret to anyone hired that everything is predicated on following seniority in this business. All new hires are made well aware of this risk. Fortunately, I’ve never worked at United, but I was hired by another carrier in 1973, and finally took a “buy out” and retired in 2003 as a dispatcher.
Can you do an article on how Lufthansa handles this crisis with regard to workforce cost reductions? They employ 135.000 people worldwide. As far as I know, they managed to reduce costs on several levels simultaneously, such as monthly pay, short time pay, retirement provisions, bonuses, duty time, previously negotiated pay raises etc. Which allowed them, until now, to retain most of their employees and, at the same time, ensures that the individual’s income is not cut by by 70% (or 100% like described above) so that these folks need not move out of their homes and live on the street collecting food stamps or eating garbage, like in the US. “Employer responsibilty” in times of crises, I guess. But, hey, they are all communists in continental Europe. And they even take away your guns! I wonder why none of the U.S. airlines has internalized the British Airways model yet: fire EVERYBODY and then re-hire the same individuals for eight GBP (10,50 USD) an hour. Brexit hooray!
I greatly appreciate the Lufthansa model. I’ve teased at it in previous posts and more senior FAs have said absolutely NO WAY! (We have already given enough concessions, no way we will give any more)
Really???? Lufthansa is keeping most of their employees how easily you turn a blind eye to the 30,300 Lufthansa employees laid off according to multiple articles, this after all those concession. A simple Google search resulted in several articles on this topic.
https://www.aerotime.aero/pijus/25600-lufthansa-group-to-cut-25-of-workforce-100-jets-to-follow
Lufthansa has managed to keep over 105,000 employees out of 135,000 employed. The AFA has managed to keep 19,500 out of 25,000 FA’s employed. The difference is the AFA did so without any concessions. Lufthansa will lock their unions into a COVID contract and it will take years before they reach their pre-COVID pay, vacation, bonus, work rules and retirement benefits if they ever get it back.
Apparently, Galen…
You haven’t been paying attention to the real world events … either past or present!
For a current example, take a look at UnionsWork’s REAL example of your vaunted Lufthansa…
Or, for a very pertinent example from the past, consider Frank Lorenzo’s decimation of Continental Airlines employees in the 1980s… where he essentially fired all the Flight Attendants, and then said if they wanted a job, they could come back at half-pay with virtually no work rules… aka…
modern day slave labor, where… if you were lucky… you could come up for a quick breath of air!
Is that the kind of conditions you’re suggesting, Galen?
Look at this circus (in the comments section of this article). The workforce eating each other up, proverbially beating the shit out of each other. Senior vs. junior. Allegedly deserved vs. supposedly entitled. Union-bashing vs. corporate apple-polishing. When they should all stand together in this time of crisis. Accepting some concessions for keeping their jobs and insisting that they be repaid when times get better. United top management is laughing their heads off, I am sure. The workforce destroys itself. Couldn’t go better for the C-suite fellas in their leather armchairs. Who cares about the customer who will be stuck forever with disgruntled employees who will never ever forget how their employer treated them during the coronavirus catastrophe and who start fights among themselves on flights while the idiot passenger can only look on. These top managers move on eventually, not giving a damn. What a pathetic tragedy, the American way.
Is this about not passing any information on to the membership about the mitigation program and the NALs before a decision was made about these actions between UA and the AFA, or about letting the AFA membership vote whether the mitigation program should have been implemented in the first place?
Let alone that a memebership vote of 25.000 individuals would take weeks or months to organize and cost thousands of dollars, what do you think the (long-term) outcome of such a vote would have been?
And then those conspiracy theorists would have argued that the ballots were rigged and the result falsified.
Ah, CloudFlyer…
Obviously you’ve been around a while… long enough it seems to have witnessed firsthand the cluster we call being an employee at UAL! And you’re aware enough to have observed the huge diversity of understanding. or complete lack thereof, of an apparently entitled AFA membership!
Much like the way people respond to life in general… it seems that no matter what is done on behalf of and for the benefit of others… someone somewhere is going to complain about it!
A couple of relevant quotes…
“You can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time… but you’ll never please all the people all of the time” – popularized by Abraham Lincoln. And…
“It doesn’t matter what happens in life… what’s important is how you deal with it!” – My Mom.
Ah, CloudFlyer…
It seems you’ve been around long enough to have witnessed first-hand the cluster we call being an employee at UAL… and wise enough to have observed the understanding, or complete lack thereof, of a fully engaged AFA membership!
It seems that, just like in life, no matter what is done on behalf of and for the benefit of others, someone somewhere is going to complain!
A couple of relevant quotes…
“You can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time… but you will never please all the people all of the time” – popularized by Abraham Lincoln, and…
“It doesn’t matter what happens in life… what’s important is how you deal with it!” – My Mom!
Haha, those hypocrites. “The union is supposed to protect all its members equally.” Ask these pseudos again about those long-term flight attendants in the international bases (that are about to be closed) who are all completely equal AFA members, having paid dues for the last 25 years, and who are now to be fired, if UA gets away with it, see https://liveandletsfly.com/united-closing-flight-attendant-bases/ Then, all of a sudden, even the junior folks at UA who are all so upset about the AFA right now will easily say “Well those, who cares, they can be given the boot and the AFA should not spend a single cent on fighting for them.” So much for equal protection. All fake and dishonest. Uagh!
Here, here Eric! Well said on all points!
I have been with United for 28 years. I have so much fun on my flights and I love my job. I love joking with the passengers and helping them with whatever they need. All the generalizing Re: seniority and age is insulting.
In my opinion, the main problem with the additional offer of No Activity Lines/pick up 35 hrs from other flight attendants (if you can) is that the plan was negotiated in secret. AFA was not supposed to leak it. If it was leaked no deal. That is SHADY! Some flight attendants would rather be Involuntarily furloughed. That way, they would receive furlough pay. The scary part is that after 6 years, if you aren’t called back, you are severed from the company. That and the lack of some benefits after the 1st 3 months,
Everything that is happening here has become quite complicated. With the new plan offered, some junior flight attendants are keeping their jobs while more senior FAs already took a voluntary furlough (not knowing this plan would be placed on the table) At this point, I really hope the cares act is extended. Then, everything is null and void and the entire furlough process begins again from square one.
Some of the comments on this page are absolutely shocking. People say “seniors” are terrible, selfish people for not quitting. And in the same breath, they say they want young, pretty girls to work their flights. How old are you? What is your line of work? When do you plan to leave your job? Times are tough enough right now. The negativity some of you display leaves me to believe you are suffering some major Covid depression. Treat others how you would like to be treated and stop throwing stones at glass houses.
* Many of you keep referring to “hags”, “women” and “girls”. You know we have loads of male attendants, right?
I agree with everything you’ve said VioletteSkye. Spot on!
VioletteSkye, it’s nice to hear from a tenured UA FA such as yourself. I agree with all that you have said. Thanks for your honest input. You hit it all on the head!
Being an UA FA it is really sad seeing the division between junior and senior FAs. Yes being in this industry is all about seniority, you put in your time, you see the benefits later on. But everyone was once a junior FA, and you wanted the same equal representation as the most senior person when you’re hired on. It is not fair that the Union stopped fighting for the 5500 flight attendants. We pay equal amount of union dues for a voice and our voice was taken away when there was no equal representation for junior 5500. We are forgotten and our money is just being taken for greed.
The company was acting shady with creating the furlough programs on the downlow and making all these senior flight attendants take voluntary furlough which would offset the amount of junior people being furloughed. It is up to the union though to prevent United from getting away with any of its shady business. When the union stopped fighting for the 5500 it sunk down to United level and doesn’t make them better but worse. The union is for EVERYONE. No matter the seniority. We are one. We stand in solidarity. We are suppose to be protected.
I wonder if it even possible to file a class action lawsuit for not having equal representation from the union.
Also to add on though,
Reading the comments and from jump seat talk, senior FAs say to the junior FAs “you’re not an FA until you get furloughed.”
Why would you wish that upon anyone. It is heartbreaking when you hear people say that. Being older you fight for a better work environment so that no one else should experience all the dreadful hardships and hard bumps along the industry. You flight for creating a better generation. Please be nice to everyone. Junior or Senior. This pandemic is no joke. These furloughs don’t do any good to anyone. People are scared, and uncertain with what is ahead for them.