What Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian is proposing not simply banning naughty passengers from U.S. airlines, but asking U.S. taxpayers to finance litigation and collection costs that Delta has shown little penchant to pursue on its own. Yes folks, the CEO of Delta wants to pick your pocket once again while putting your civil liberties at risk via a dubious expanded no-fly list.
Delta Air Lines CEO Still Demanding New Federal No-Fly List…But Follow The Money To Understand Why
There is no dispute: passengers who become violent onboard or fail to observe lawful crewmember instructions deserve to be prosecuted and jailed. No airline must tolerate a passenger who jeopardizes the safety of passengers or crewmembers onboard.
Our only point of disagreement is how those violent passengers are dealt with, and even there, broad agreement exists. Prosecute them? Yes? Fine them? Yes. Ban them from your airline? Yes. But demand the federal government create a new no-fly list that will keep these passengers off all airlines? That’s still a step too far.
I read Bastian’s latest op-ed in The Washington Post last night and came to precisely the same conclusion as View From The Wing: that Delta is essentially asking U.S. taxpayers to subsidize its own duty to protect customers and employees through a dubious blacklisting process.
Think about it. How often does Delta sue passengers who act out onboard? Diversions are tremendously expensive, with costs including extra fuel, labor expenses, hotel and meal vouchers for displaced passengers, and rebooking costs. Furthermore, when an aircraft is impacted by a delay, it causes inconvenience not just to those onboard, but a chain reaction of delays since aircraft don’t sit on the ground very long between flights.
What Bastian is advocating for is transferring that threat of deterrence and cost onto the federal government (i.e. taxpayers): let the feds prosecute cases and manage a new no-fly list.
As for civil liberties concerns, Bastian is quite dismissive:
Fairness and equity for all involved are essential. Travelers convicted of violating the law would have the opportunity for due process. And we support a process that allows offenders to have their inclusion on the list reviewed and removed if warranted.
That’s not how a no-fly list works.
I’m fervently against a new no-fly list and have voiced my civil liberties concerns here. I also think this problem will largely go away once the mask mandate is lifted and passengers are left to decide for themselves wether to wear masks onboard. Masks do not account for all cases of disturbances, but they account for the majority of them over the pandemic and have become a flashpoint of the culture war (lamentable as that may be, there is no going back).
Those cases that are left will center on substance abuse. Do we really want to place a blanket ban on people traveling via air who are sick and need help? I don’t view such punishment as proportionate.
De-Escalation Skills Avoid Violence Onboard
Finally, one other point. Bastian states that most incidents onboard never become violent, explaining:
These conflicts are complicated and stressful nonetheless. It’s thanks to these employees’ professionalism and training that most of these incidents never go viral and are resolved before becoming violent; but they continue to be a daily, unwelcome possibility that makes the employees’ jobs more difficult.
What does that have to do with a no-fly list? Kudos to the flight attendants who are able to calm passengers down and avoid violence. Being a flight attendant is not an easy job and I salute those who know how to de-escalate tension rather than inflame it.
But what is the point of including this paragraph unless Bastian also intends to ban these passengers too? Bastian says “any person convicted of a crime because of an onboard disruption” should be banned from all U.S. airlines, but is he expecting prosecution of those who, for example, initially refuse to wear their mask but then put it on when counseled by a flight attendant?
I certainly hope Bastian does not want to ban passengers from ALL airlines who respond positively to flight attendant counseling.
CONCLUSION
There are already laws in place to harshly deal with those who act violently or disorderly on an airplane. We should use them. Airlines should vigorously defend their passengers and employees by launching civil lawsuits against disruptive passengers. But Bastian’s latest argument does nothing to cogently justify a new no-fly list. Quite the contrary, it confirms what a misguided (and lazy) idea this is.
“ I also think this problem will largely go away once the mask mandate is lifted and passengers are left to decide for themselves wether to wear masks onboard”
You are more optimistic than many of us Matt that it’s going away anytime soon. I hope we are wrong and you correct but I’m not seeing it on the March deadline.
As for the story itself, he’s crazy but not unexpected based on all airlines history of looking to the government for help repeatedly.
Flew Delta roundtrip last week. On outbound the authoritarian crew were hyper-focussed on masking and barked their demands repeatedly through a 10 hour flight, while ignoring rowdy passengers creating real disturbances. The inbound crew announced the mask rules once and focussed on customer service and made me feel like a paying guest rather than a criminal. Guess which flight I preferred?
How stupid to think that a crew is authoritarian simply because they are enforcing the rules. You felt like a criminal because of that? Next time find another way to travel!
You seem to be making up things. In neither case did crew fall to enforce the rule on masks. However on one they acted like soldiers in a dictatorship.
This example why even if Congress passed such a list, it would be struck down. There would be equal protection and due process issue. Not just cause different FA act differently, but each company has separate policies on what is/isn’t allowed.
White guys steal differently. They call it lobbying. It is plain corruption. They come across as astute and learned even they are just a bunch of scoundrels.
Black guys get thrown in prison when they shoplift perhaps something a millionth in value.
When black guys figure out how to steal through lobbying, it will become illegal. How convenient.
Damn you are one angry black man and certainly not representative of them as equal members of society. And if I’m wrong and you are not black, I believe most don’t feel that way and don’t need you speaking up for them. They are more than capable of handling themselves in 2022. Sad some still see them through color instead of just regular members of society, no different than any other human being.
Though I agree with your comment I must also emphasize that we’re it not for facts his comment would truly be useless. Race disparities are more evident in 2022 and as time goes by without truly addressing g the issue of race. One one hand we have people like you, berating those who feel disenfranchised. On the other we have those who have such disdain for skin color that they blame all of society’s problems on them. This article was about an airline CEO (Delta) wanting to convince you and I that we should foot the bill for their responsibilities. And why is he doing it? If not because he’s rich and white I don’t know why. I do know that no black man in history has made such requests successfully nor otherwise.
Debit is absolutely right, so of course someone got defensive.
What an ignorant, shallow and incorrect conclusion you reached. How did you conclude that a cogent rebuttal was defensive? Pretty simple- minded thinking. You can do better.
I liked the recent story about the American Airlines FA who bashed a belligerent passenger with a coffee pot as he tried to breech the flight deck. Assuming a cabin crew can detain and restrain such behavior, they should be empowered also to inject sedatives into such people and then have the bastards hauled off in limp mode once the flight arrives.
I think our corrupt gov’t should make a mandate that everyone must be vaxed, with their 2 dosages, to fly. Just as many establishments require proof of vaccination to be served, this should be the new federal mandate… then we all can be back to normal and travel on the plane…
And if anyone prefers to wear. mask,. then so be it; it should be the individual’s choice.
Some may say it’s discrimination… we all know thats a bunch of crap; as I haven’t heard of any lawsuits against the thousands and thousands of business that have this protocol.
Think you are a year late with this. Your mandates to enter restaurants and other public spaces are falling away each day. Even talk of dropping them in NYC. Last stand for COVID police. Most of the world has already moved on. Should be plenty of opportunities for you to stay angry. Good luck with that.
There is no mandate for vaccinations to fly. Get over it and stop listening to lies.
This is a fantastic piece. Delta wants the government to do their dirty work and engage in behavior that will ultimately lead to abuse. I have favored the mask mandate and also favor a vaccine mandate – two things the airlines don’t want. Instead, the airlines want to be able to tell people who can and can’t use common carriers, using government muscle.
Enough of the bailouts. Bailout the Working Tax payers scratching out a living
You’re an idiot. Anyone that can’t follow basic instructions shouldn’t be allowed to fly, period. Only clowns wouldn’t understand this basic principle.
Totally agree. We shouldn’t allow unlawful passengers to fly. Most Americans agree that the federal government should keep our skies safe. This is just another positive step in that direction.
I respectfully disagree and support what Mr. Bastian is advocating to be implemented. Unruly passengers that do not follow rules that they agreed to prior to receiving their boarding pass are a danger to other passengers and flight crews. They should be placed on a no-fly list.
I believe Delta is not only welcome, but fully justified in placing them on its own no-fly list. It is the idea of enlisting the aid of the federal government to assemble, monitor, and execute such a list that is troubling, especially as we examine the pitfalls of the 9/11-era no-fly list.
What’s wrong in banning such passengers from flying? If they can act in this manner on one airline, what’s stopping them from doing so again on another? Why risk others’ lives? How about civil liberties of passengers and flight crew who do not act like morons?
Also, there are enough non-mask related such instances. So trivializing it as a mask mandate issue is not just. If people can fight in a restaurant for a steak, they’ll do that in a metal tube thousand sof feet in sky
I have to differ with you Matthew. The current 9/11 no fly lists are based on many factors and people who should not be on there get on it and cant find out why and that’s wrong. The Delta request is a person who is “convicted” would be placed on the list. Should all the airlines band together and form their own list, NO. But, if people are convicted in a court of law, that’s great in my opinion
I disagree with you on every single point. It’s people like that allow this problem to continue.
My counterpoint would be the ends don’t justify the means in our system of government.
Matt…ur a pompous little self important prick. I pity you.
I greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your care.
This is a democracy, and you have a right to your opinion. I do appreciate the ability to comment with minimal (why not zero?) censorship. Most Americans agree this is not an overreach of government. Rather it’s a responsibility to keeping us safe.
In the U.S., litigation and legal costs have been weaponized. If I am in a dispute, the cost of lawyers drives the decision. Not just how much but if I can shift the cost to the company or entity. It is no longer who is right or wrong. Sad.
I wish they would create and enforce a no fly list that spans the entire airline industry. I have been on a flight that an self entitled lady had to be restrained after her altercation with another passenger and flight attendant.
So… the sex offender registry shouldn’t be handled by the federal government? Patient Registry? System of Award Management? Clinical registry? Patient registry? Firearms? DMV? Civilized society is built on social contracts. What an asinine opinion to not hold anti-maskers and miscreants accountable to government mandates. The rules are simple: don’t show your dick in playgrounds and wear masks and don’t smoke on flights.
The author brings up a great point. Delayed flights are tremendously costly. Airlines should absolutely go after those passengers who have needlessly and recklessly caused such delays. Once the decision has been made made that they will no longer be a welcome customer, the gloves should come off.
I would also like to point out that this is a much smaller problem than the media and our own bosses make it out to be. The vast majority of passengers are decent and understand that there is a zero tolerance for disruptive behavior on an aircraft in a post 9/11 world. That said, we’ve never seen numbers like this in the history of aviation.
Delta has two no-fly lists, one for simple mask noncompliance (which will go away when the masks go away), and one for more disruptive behavior. It’s the latter that is permanent, and the group of individuals I think everyone is in agreement should not be flying, period.
The AFA agrees that the government’s terrorist no-fly list has all sorts of problems, namely that there is no due process and often no notification you’re on it until you try to fly. That is not what is being proposed. Everyone who buys a ticket in America should enjoy the protections of the U.S. Constitution.
Airlines cannot do this on their own without violating antitrust laws. The airlines should absolutely sue every annoying passenger who causes a delay, but for the worst offenders, the violent ones, the ones who have tried to breach the flight deck or open the emergency exits, is it too much to ask that they never fly again, even if it’s on Allegiant?
Eh. Pretty normal. The US government only serves companies. Bastian isn’t asking for anything out of the ordinary in the corporate dystopia that is the usa
Using this logic, then sex offender laws should also be repealed. No more reporting to neighbors that Chester the Molester moved in next door. We would not want such a list to possibly be misused would we Matt? The ends do not justify the means, as you said.
Also, Gary’s argument was injecting a false narrative into the issue. You may want to avoid linking up on that one. At least you made a cogent argument without distorting, or dare I say, lying about the facts as Gary did.
This is the exact problem, Mathew doesn’t put forth any effort in advertising that delta is in the wrong, and instead feels that delta should do this and that. They ought to shut up and fly planes and not worry about all this nonsense.
Matthew,
Doesn’t flying commercial in the skies above USA “governed” by the FAA …dictating every rule, process and and facet… no matter how minor for carriers and passengers? Yes they do…FAA = Fed Govt= Fed Jailer. Yes they should maintain a no fly list. Try applying for a good job if you are a felon…ain’t happening. Ones bad actions in flight should follow you around.
My wife is a flight attendant for AA. God help the asshole that abuses her .,, all 5”2 , 105 lbs on a plane.
She had access to the passenger manifest and they will be “hearing” from me
Flying is not a right silly. An Airline is a private company.
I’m totally for a No Fly List. Why is it someone else responsibility to help you be a courteous passenger. If you are an adult, then act like it. If you need help you speak of, flight attendants and pilots are NOT your therapist. The skies are not your protest stomping ground nor you trial or jury court to air any grievances, even with a customer service issue. Remember flying is a accessible luxury, not a right. You can still move about the country even though it’s inconvenient by car or boat.
I am OK with a “we don’t want you as a customer” internal airline list.
Understand the banks have a list of people they do not want as customers, that they share. This prevents bad customers from “simply” going to another bank, maybe the airlines could do the same. Don’t think the average person has a “right” to open a bank account, nor a “right” to fly on an airline.
This would help maintain the safety of the general public.
I favor a new no fly list. I am tired of these so called “new freedom” assholes who think they can defy the law. Someone who refuses to wear a mask is no different than those who stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021. Do I like wearing a mask? No! But there are or were good reasons to mandate them. A new no-fly last will act as a deterrent and stop these idiots from thing, “well, if I am banned by Delta, I will just fly American.
Why should the minority of people make it dangerous for most passengers, and air crew by failing to follow rules set by the government for a safe flight? If this minority can act up on one airline, what is to stop them from doing it on another airline? Would you like to be sitting next to someone who is acting up, and acts like what ever they they want is more important than you? If the flight crew ask you to do something, is one thing if you do what they ask, but the actions of what we have been reading in the news media is much worst than that; there is a difference. Don’t the rest of us have rights, or do this minority have more rights than the rest of us? They should be banned on all airlines. Thank you.
I must disagree. If a person can not follow the rules of the airline (whatever those rules are) what makes you think that once the mask mandate is lifted they will follow the rules in the future. If they can’t control themself now they will not control themself in the future. So far we have been fortunate that these people have not caused a catastrophe . As soon as that happens the people not in favor of the no fly list will be asking why wasn’t something done before? When I get on an airplane I want to get to my destination on time. I don’t want to be diverted to some other airport and spend the night there because some goof won’t wear his mask for the 2-3 hour flight.
It’s absolutely ludicrous that anyone believes that they can get on an airplane, act a pure fool, put everyone in danger, and actually cause someone bodily harm simply because of their asinine ideology, that if they don’t want to wear a mask they aren’t going to be forced to wear one. We were in a pandemic, people were getting sick and dying. In order to fly on Delta you HAVE to wear a mask, PERIOD. You don’t want to follow the rules – don’t fly. Yes, every idiot that believes they can cause disruption in the skies for whatever reason should be punished and placed on a no fly list forever. No exceptions- I have rights to! I expect to have a safe peaceful flight wherever I’m going. Bravo Delta, most people support your efforts!
As an airline captain, I put safety above everything else. In many instances passenger disruptions distract us from our job which is safe operation of the aircraft. If I’m dealing with a passenger problem on the ground or in flight it takes my attention away from flying the airplane, communicating with controllers or running checklists. Banning a disruptive passenger from one airline only passes the problem on to another airline. Also, the gravity of being banned from commercial aviation entirely would serve as a deterrent for would be offenders. I’m no fan of airline management in general but I think Ed Bastian has a good idea here. It doesn’t seem to be motivated by money in my opinion.
Provide data this happens, or stfu
It’s more likely, as in my incident, the fa caused it. Now granted, I’m only on the “non compliant” list due to a Karen FA deciding the face diaper I had worn (admittedly useless, designed that way because of my asthma) for months prior to this incident and trying to force me into a stupid surgical mask despite my going back and forth with the executive team since the previous june about my issues. You don’t get to make false claims and peddle them as fact. The likelihood of this happening is extremely rare or it would be all over the news.
Pretty strong words there Brandon, likely the same type of dialogue that got you in trouble on your flight. The problem with people like you is that you don’t like being told what to do. I get it, I usually don’t either. On an airplane jam packed with people with no means to escape however, is no place to take a stand. FA’s are following directions from airline leadership to the best of their ability. Differences in interpretation arise at times, I’ve witnessed it myself. In these instances, the decision to get in an argument and escalate the situation is what’s leads to the next problem that I suspect you have. That is, lack of consideration for those around you. Once you start this escalation, our attention is diverted from our normal duties to problem solving. So yes, this does happen all the time, I don’t have data, I have many personal experiences where I had to stop my preparation for the flight and go back to help baby sit someone like you throwing a tantrum because you had your feelings hurt by someone trying to do their job.
I disagree. The government should maintain a no-fly list for unruly passengers, and taxpayers should pay for it. But it doesn’t go far enough!
While we’re at it, let’s create a no-eat list also for those unruly restaurant customers, ban them from every restaurant, and make the public pay for it too! Oh, and a no-shopping list for basically everyone in Walmart, a no-drive list to ban people from using any rental car companies, a no-movies list for theaters, etc. Oh, what about a no-healthcare list, act up in a clinic or hospital and later if you have a heart attack, good luck!
Why use already existing laws to fine, prosecute, and punish when we can just ban people from everything and force the government to do it at the public’s expense.
I mean there’s no way that airlines would then cut down on training or protections for their flight staff in response so they can find another way to increase profits while effectively getting a different type of government bailout that we pay for, right? /s
You act like people are banned from airlines because they didn’t put their luggage up correctly. People are banned from PHYSICAL VIOLENCE on a plane that has many people confined in a small space with no escape and high security since 9/11. Shame on you
Oh gosh darn, a no fly list? How about shoot them dead as they kneel face down on the ramp in a puddle of jet fuel? You endanger the flight, you get permanently removed from any possibility of using commercial travel. What, you had some bad mushrooms? Spoiled marijuana cookies? Too bad, you get to die also.
Very few people endanger the flight, you pedantic Karen. Grow up and join the rest of us in adulthood. Even Kirby and Parker understand that most of these “disturbances” are due to their policies that they now again admit were useless from the start as planes aren’t a significant contributor to spread, with or without, masks. Nevermind that every rct known to man demonstrated a complete lack of correlation between masks and viral spread. But instead, as the ultimate Karen, SVP Jill Surdek, noted, this was never about science, this was about appeasing you simpletons who are too ignorant to understand basic math and science. This was about appeasing you. Over those of us who have a ACAA exempted condition.
Thanks Matt for finally having a reasonable perspective on this situation. It’s just sad you didn’t feel this way when those of us with actual acaa protected medical conditions were being barred from flying because of this stupidity.
Am I the only one that thinks that Ed Bastain looks like sleazy used car salesman..?
I get so tired of white privilege people complaining about their “rights” being infringed upon, in this case, an airline where every passenger has an expectation of safety. When one or two passengers can’t, or won’t, follow the rules and the airline has to turn around or divert to the nearest airport, then who is looking out for the rights of the other passengers to have a safe and timely travel experience. No one is entitled to fly. You can always rent a car.
I didn’t realize flying was a civil liberty. Where is that in the Constitution and in which case did the SCOTUS affirm it?
Someone tell this clown that once he takes his mask off we can have a big boy conversation. He looks like a complete joke
This is alot like how when you get caught drunk driving a Chevrolet you can just drink and drive in a Ford the next time to get around having to take responsibility for your actions. Freedom in America is awesome!
You want state governments to grant you a license to fly as a passenger on a commercial plane?
Do I want to live in a communist world with just one airline? This bozo needs to be strip search every time he enters the pro shop at his country club and reminded he is not the richest man in the checkout line. Therefore he is suspect for shoplifting premium golf balls. Thank you God for capitalism.
He is a worthless scumbag C level exec, at an airline to make things worse. He wants the tax payers to finance his yacht, summer house, and his fleet of luxury cars all while paying no taxes himself. The fact that this is news to anyone just goes to underline the public stupidity that allows a person like this to exist in the first place
Tell that piece of s*** to go to f****** h*** with all this liberal f****** democrats and cronies the cronies that rich son of a b**** wants help from us taxpayers f*** him f*** him.
When president Donald Trump gets back in office all of you are going to prison do you hear that prison.
That wonderful man helped this whole country me and you crazy son of a b****’s throwing him to the curb he was making this country so much better.
And another thing a****** take off the mask the mask doesn’t do anything it never did
I take you are Latino, by your name and the way you express yourself with no respect to others using your filthy mouth. Remember: “you are what you say”. Go back home and ask your parents to teach you some manners. There’s no place in society for people like you.
I’ll bet 1000% Matthew Klint is supportive of student loan forgiveness.
I’m actually very much against it. Why?
Mr. Klint, you’re an idiot. The last thing I want is to be rerouted or have my travel plans delayed/canceled dude to an unruly passenger who doesn’t deserve to be on an airplane. I’d imagine 99.99% of all airline passengers feel the same. Ed Bastain is the smartest airline CEO of the most successful US based airline. Create a national no fly list so all these disrespectful worthless people won’t get the opportunity to fly on any US airline. It’s absolutely brilliant and will clean up Americas Skies. Thank the lord for Ed Bastain and what he’s trying to achieve. Mr. Klint, please become a logical thinker and don’t write about stuff that embarrasses you.
Ultimately, who is prosecuting the offenders and collecting the fines? Do airlines get money back? The government is doing the charges and fines, so we’re already paying for it. What’s the real issue here?
Under the author’s logic, murder should be prosecuted by the victim. Come on man!
Sorry, but we are talking about civil issues (flight bans), not criminal issues.
I disagree! People who been convicted for a crime committed on an aircraft, should not be able to fly again, period, full stop! This is not about using tax funds wantonly, but it is about public safety! Flying is a privilege not right, and should treated accordingly.
There was a guy arrested recently in the UK after he was accused of rape. It was after deboarding a United flight. You think this guy deserves to able to fly again, after conviction? What kind sick person are you?
“Being a flight attendant is not an easy job and I salute those who know how to de-escalate tension rather than inflame it.
But what is the point of including this paragraph unless Bastian also intends to ban these passengers too? Bastian says “any person convicted of a crime because of an onboard disruption” should be banned from all U.S. airlines, but is he expecting prosecution of those who, for example, initially refuse to wear their mask but then put it on when counseled by a flight attendant?”
Quite a leap there, Matthew. Nowhere in his statement does he imply that he wants compliant passengers banned. In any event, there’s no mechanism that would even allow this to happen.
The countless times each flight that FAs have to engage non-compliant passengers and deescalate the situation is not recorded in any way. I have seen FAs show herculean levels of restraint in dealing with passengers that are nasty, non-compliant, and even hostile. When they are able to deescalate these situations there is no record of the offending passenger.
Ed is not looking to pick the taxpayers’ pocket. What he’s trying to do is prevent the worst of these offenders (and it’s not always just about the mask) from affecting the safety of another airlines’ customers when they’ve clearly demonstrated their actions are reprehensible.
I am absolutely with Delta one hundred percent on banning passengers that are unruly, disrespectful, and can not comply with airline rules. Delta is a great airline and I can’t say enough of the staff from Guest Service Agents, Gate Agents, Flight Attendant and Captains.
If you don’t own your own plane I suggest you make everyone a favor and comply with airline and their staff. No one wants to be combating with obnoxious grown ups. Put your mask on and safe travels.
The US decided to defund mental health and social services, between the 1960s-80s cutting to the bone or eliminating the social safety net that makes a civilized nation, the result is disruptive and dangerous behavior in every public venue and service in American life. It is not a private company’s responsibility to have to screen or deal with serious behavioral problems.
I believe a no-fly list based on a passenger’s poor behavior is a great idea. It’s for the good of all well behaved passengers safety. If a passenger becomes a threat and is only banned to fly on one airline, what’s to stop them from going to another airline and causing a major disruption on another carriers flight?