For the last few days I have read opinion after opinion about how the Japanese culture of safety, selflessness, and respect for authority was the reason that no passenger died while evacuating JL 516 after it crashed into a Japanese Coast Guard aircraft. In the same breath, I have heard that the opposite would definitively have occurred in the United States: that passengers would have died while taking selfies or dragging their oversized carry-ons off the aircraft. The better path would be to avoid such assumptions, which rely upon gross generalizations and vapid conjecture.
The Evacuation Of JL 516 Was Complicated…
The reason I have focused on the evacuation of Japan Airlines flight 516 over the last few days is because initial reports defied the stereotypes that painted an overly idealistic vision of Japanese travelers stoically remaining seated while waiting for instructions, then calmly filing forward or backwards to their designated exit row and gracefully sliding down the chute to safety on the ground below. That ran contrary to the glowing praise about “Japanese culture” flowing from many who made such assumptions right from the outset.
Here’s the thing. It was not that easy. It was not so straightforward. More passengers accounts are emerging and there was indeed some chaos onboard. There was panic. In fact, there were even passengers who took their luggage with them.
A Wall Street Journal report this morning provides us the closest real-time account yet of what occurred onboard. While affirming the details I shared earlier, we learned that it took 16 minutes from time of landing to evacuate the aircraft, even though the impact occurred moments after the plane touched down at Tokyo International Airport.
Joseph Hayashi, 28, was seated 27B and told the WSJ:
“Everyone was screaming from the initial impact and then everything got eerily quiet because everyone was confused.”
Per Hayashi, a passenger, not a flight attendant, began yelling, “Put your head down, keep your seat belts on, stay in your seat!”
But passengers did not listen and panic ensued when the aircraft PA system stoped working, forcing flight attendants to yell until megaphones could be located.
“Passengers were yelling at the flight attendants to open the doors. It was chaotic. It wasn’t like full-on pushing, but it was the first time I’ve seen Japanese people push each other.”
Some even tried to grab their belongings while leaving:
“There were some people trying to get their things, but obviously if you’re doing that, you’re holding everyone up. People were like, ‘What are you doing? Those things don’t matter.’”
Doors opened about five minutes later.
Flight attendants planned to dismiss passengers by row, but it soon became a free-for-all, with all passengers getting up to exit as quickly as possible.
“I got up, put my coat on and everyone starts running toward the front.”
Hiroshi Kaneko, a 67-year-old philosophy professor, said flight attendants warned passengers not to take their carry-on bags along, but he took his backpack anyway because it had valuables in it…
The Truth Often Dispels Stereotypes
Now, let’s take a step back. As someone who had done work and vacationed in Japan, it is a country I love. There is something uniquely inspiring about the order and efficiency of Japan. I love the focus on service and that Japan has rejected the tipping culture that is imperialistically knocking on other borders around the world.
There are some cultural quirks too. If you get to your hotel an hour early and your room is ready, you’re still likely going to have to wait an hour. You really cannot blow your nose in public.
But my issue is far less about how great the Japanese culture is, rather than the assumptions about how bad that the US culture is. I won’t even count up here all that is wrong in the USA: there is indeed a cultural, moral, and even physical malaise that seems to be worsening rather than improving, even as the US has also made progress in some areas faster than Japan has.
But the truth is far more complicated and drawing generalizations about how Americans or Japanese would act seems absolutely foolish, especially as more facts have emerged about this evacuation.
I wholly reject the assumption that passengers would have unquestionably died in the USA had the crash occurred here. I reject the assumption that passengers would be taking selfies or refusing to evacuate without their carry-on bag (or even their emotional support dog wearing a “service animal” jacket). I actually think that when push comes to shove, Americans do rise to the occasion.
But each case is highly context dependent and I do not think the fact that is levity in safety videos of US carriers or flight attendants who enjoy a bit too much junk food suggest that evacuations or safety itself are not taken seriously. We actually can make no definitive statements about what would have happened had this occurred in the USA.
CONLCUSION
Here’s my point: can we just stop making blanket statements about “American” or “Japanese” culture, particularly when the point is to attack rather than defend? Because such assumptions are really simply assumptions and already we’ve seen that the situation onboard JL516 was complex.
It is GREAT news that every passenger onboard JL516 survived. Let’s herald that, continue teaching safety and promoting passenger awareness across the world, learn from what JAL did right, but let’s not just make purely speculators and asinine assumptions.
I would merely opine that squeezing so many passengers on airplanes , more so in Asia , but also in the West , for the sake of additional profits , is quite dangerous at time of evacuation . Although I am a big guy , I never thought this when on the older 707 , which carried about half , or even a fourth , as many passengers as the current airplanes .
Consider if you have had an experience of leaving a theatre after a performance ? The queue did not move fast . Now consider if the theatre doubles the number of seats ?
It was interesting to compare how OMAAT dealt with the story and how commentators responded, to what was written here. I’m not sure what was most distasteful, the comments that bordered on racism or those who knew little but ‘knew it all’. I like this blog, but it wasn’t it’s best moment.
I made no declarative statements in my initial coverage. I simply responded to the immediate attribution of the “culture” as to the reason why everyone survived as well as the blanket assumptions that the evacuation went smoothly before more facts emerged (pointing to a counter-narrative from a respected source).
I just don’t understand what made it a bad moment?
Matt, only you know why you made your initial post on the basis of one report by someone who wasn’t as far as I know actually there. Your initial post, the next one that was put up and then subsequently removed, illustrates that the way this story has been reported here was not to your usual high standards. The flames were fanned by some commentators here, but you lit the fire. Again, have a look at how Ben reported the story. There is some difference. To be asking now ‘what, who?’ Is gaslighting your readers.
I haven’t removed any post…not sure what you mean.
Ben also opined, in case you missed it (“it’s where Japan’s culture of following rules certainly comes in handy.”)
So quite honestly, I am close to accusing you of stirring the pot here. The initial report was based upon Japanese media reports and presented a divergence from the narrative that was quickly emerging based upon one grainy video of the evacuation.
OMAAT? That’s funny. Ben is the least qualified to comment on anything related to cultures and society. He was all showering praise on Japan and determined that it was for this reason that no one died. Yet, at the same time actual facts were emerging (like in AV Herald which Matthew used) that show things were chaotic and confused onboard. What got people off that plane was survival instinct. Not some collective consciousness of politeness. And if Ben ever left the airport or his hotel room he might better understand that at times, many times, Japan’s rigid rule following actually impedes progress in the country. How do I know this? I work there quite a bit each year and I lived in Sapporo for some time.
Lol you really felt the need to put down OMAAT? Smh….
LALF of course looking for topics that will drive engagement aka click bait and succeeding. I didn’t actually read this post but just knew from the headlines that there would be lots of comments and just came straight to comment section
Yes, I do. You don’t choose for me my opinion. And I have one. He does excellent reviews. He does horrible social commentary and analysis. I’ve said it before, Ben needs to stay in his lane and hawk his cards and reviews. Otherwise he comes across as naive and silly.
“I didn’t actually read this post.” Even more telling, lol.
@Stuart … so true when you state : “What got people off that plane was survival instinct. Not some collective c9onsciousness of politeness.” So true .
@ Maugrim
Perhaps you should actually say the very early difference with OMAAT was the focus on flight attendants receiving praise while the body count of the coast guard was still unknown. At that point, union shills started ” this is why we deserve every penny asked”. I find it selfish exploitation of a tragedy and the replies were a pile on of FA F U. Literally. So maybe at LALF we didn’t pre- praise enough? Could that be the difference that upsets you?
See the article where the Japanese man grabbed his coat.
If I were a passenger, I would probably grab some stuff but would leave the rollaboard behind. A coat adds protection again some fire.
The average American traveler is the worst. Obese, inconsiderate and without any awareness. A simple observation of “walk left, stand right” at any US airport moving walkway/escalator should prove the point.
I fly almost every week. Some passengers are absolutely clueless to the point that I wonder if they are missing brain cells. Last week I saw a couple show up at the check in are of Delta with lots of luggage. They took them all from the carts. Handed their passports to the agent and the agent could not find their reservation. They kept the conversation going and questioning why the gate agent could not find their reservation to suddenly realize that they were flying AA but were trying to check in on Delta. The others are the things I see on TSA. Some people bring their entire pig bank in their pockets and only empty one at a time. I have seen same passenger go trough metal detector 4 times and every time he came back to empty another pocket. This week I saw a going through security with the largest bottles of shampoo they sell at stores. I mean, they were probably 1 liter each. What goes through these people’s minds? The point is that while inside a plane, they are not ready to act in a situation of evacuation. They have no idea what is going on around them.
Matt – you have got to keep your nose out of the culture war/political stuff on here. Half the time you make yourself look like a jerk and turn the comments section into a nuclear wasteland. I read your blog for travel news and advice, not political gossip and clickbait like this.
This is the aspect of the story that fascinates me most. For better or for worse, this is what I am going to focus on. If I just repeated what the other blogs said, what good would this one be?
The only reason the comments become heated is because unlike others, I don’t delete comments that attack me or represent a viewpoint I disagree with, let alone find abhorrent.
“Maugrim” I agree with your post, I might add that there is a significant difference in the culture between say we in the US and Japan for example. Here it’s all about “me” first thing grab your suitcase/briefcase instead of follow instructions and you just might make it out safely as in the case here. Does anyone really believe that had this happened here in the US the results would mirror, I don’t.
As Maugrim postend not your finest hour.
You are doing exactly what I cautioned against. Far too many blanket assumptions in your comment.
It is impossible to know. The neighbors and friends I have are far from being “selfish” or whatever other pejorative you wish to assign to all Americans.
I don’t know why people think that Americans are uniquely selfish in comparison to other nations. They’re not, if anything they’re more selfless, especially in situations like this. In their career Americans can be cutthroat, but Americans make a unique distinction between work and their private life.
Not so sure about the always making distinction between personal and professional life. I work for a major Fortune 400 company and the leaders seems to rely, we are part of your family, you spend 40, 50, 50+ hours a week here, so this is family. Some families are also cutthroat, cue “Succession”, so there’s definitely an ideal, and then there’s reality. I’d characterize as the populous as “diverse and varied”. That said, I was amazed by the video of the cabin I saw and would love to see if this happened in America that same in-cabin video. There’s potential for a stampede 80% of the time domestic flights pull up to the gate, so it would be interesting…
Also, it’s Matt page, say what you want. You can always edit later, but be true to self.
I was not on this flight and I have as limited information (as little information as Matthew has) exactly what happened onboard after the crash. The fact is that most people have no experience/training in dealing, especially psychologically, with an event like this. It is absolutely normal that people would act somewhat irrationally in a circumstance like this one.
However, looking at the stark difference between how Japanese and non-Japanese behave in public, I would certainly certainly prefer, if I were unlucky enough to be in a crash like this, be on a plane full of Japanese people.
Are all Japanese the same? All Americans the same? I’m not disagreeing per se, but I’d like to hear more. The US is a far more diverse place.
They are not the same but when in Tokyo I am amazed that no matter how empty the streets are, nobody and I mean nobody crosses a street if there is no green light for them to cross. They are impressive. Americans used to be much better but I am shocked to see how many now don’t obey Stop signs or traffic lights.
Obedience isn’t necessarily a virtue. It can however be more efficient, more peaceful, and less chaotic.
As someone from the east who became an American, I prefer the American way of doing things. I accept and sometimes embrace the imperfections and challenges that come with living in a more outspoken and more open society.
The obesity rate in the USA is 36%. In Japan it is 5%. This alone would suggest a worse outcome had this happened in the USA.
Plus the dogs…
You and dogs…you speak like there are dogs on every flight – thought you were against generalizations. Frankly, I very seldom see dogs on flights (maybe less than 5% of them). Fat people on the other hand, well…I see a lot of them on every single flight.
I fly United and see dogs on every single flight. I’m not exaggerating.
US 1549 photos are online. Most passengers do not have stuff. Some are holding their coats. US1549 was in NYC (Hudson River).
The more dramatic the fire and smoke, the more likely that passengers will run out without belongings.
You are an uneducated moron.
Japanese society is about consideration and thought for other people (collectivistic culture).
Americans, on the other hand are individualistic.
So yes, in this case it is culturally superior.
Ask Yourself what would happen if this occurred in ATL, FLA, LAX or JFK?
So tell me, what would happen? How do you know? How could you possibly know?
I think the only morons are the ones making such definitive statements…
RE: “Culturally Superior”
Interesting. I do agree there are superior cultures. But are you saying that the Japanese culture is superior because it values collectivism more than the American culture? Whose American culture?
Of course most of us knew already. People look at Japan with such googly eyes of love – like that other blogger. Great country, sure, but as I said earlier in the week, the Human Factor will always prevail in times of stress. Ask Sully.
I agree with others that this is not your finest hour. I don’t understand the entire point of this post at all. You may not necessary be putting down Japanese culture per se, but I feel it’s very much implied. While there may be exceptions to the rule with what happened in the cabin post crash but there is no doubt that the Japanese culture played a big part. Certainly there are issues with some aspects of Japanese cultures. All cultures and society have their issues. But their discipline and consideration for others played a huge part in the successful evacuation. I’m sorry but in general, Americans are selfish and inconsiderate. Of course, there are some who are not. I’ve lived in the US for 40 years and sadly the US culture in terms of its morality and ethics have degraded severely. While it’s hard to say what would have happened if this occurred on a United or American flight, I really doubt most of the passengers would’ve been so cooperative to not bring their personal belongings from the plane.
A whole lot of assumptions.
Let’s be clear: I’m not putting down Japanese culture at all.
The point about few obese people or service animals slowing down the evacuation is a good point.
But these declarative statements that had the same thing happened in the USA there would have been mass death is just foolish speculation.
I don’t think it’s about culture so much as the fact that Japan has a 5% obesity rate. For comparison, the US has a rate of 36%. Skinny people will evacuate a plane faster than fat people. This is probably the biggest factor for the evacuation being so successful.
In a long career at TWA, I remember two evacuations: A 747 in Boston, in which passengers evacuated clutching their duty-free liquor bottles, which promptly broke upon hitting the concrete. The result: multiple leg injuries from broken glass. The second: the textbook perfect 1011 evacuation at JFK. While the aircraft was destroyed, there were no injuries, partly the result of F/A’s swatting carry-on items out of passengers hands before jumping into the slides.
An additional thought: it appears the cabin crew in Japan sat and waited–apparently for several minutes– for word from the cockpit to evacuate. We had made the decision many years ago to allow any crew member to initiate an evacuation if they thought it necessary. Evacuation alarms were installed at all cabin jumpsuits. If a cabin crew member initiated an evacuation, the cockpit was to immediately stop the aircraft and shut down all engines no questions asked,
Very interesting observations. Thank you, Lorenzo!
There are pros and cons to every culture. What if the fire had spread faster and the following of the “stay sitted” instruction would have cost lives? What if the survival of all pax needed the rear exit to be opened but the FA had refused (wasn’t given the instruction to) but pax took initiative and opened it the exit, saving themselves? What if even though the post crash landing check list may not have included “check if there’s fire” the flight crew went to check, without having to be told by the cabin crew?
Quite right.
The sinking of a ship in another country within the past decade (I am intentionally leaving out details) led to more than 300 drownings. The investigation, which included interviews with survivors, found that the ship’s leaders kept asking people to stay put, even delay the use of life jackets, and the passengers (many were students who would not question authority) complied, leading directly to their deaths.
Had I been on this Japan Airlines flight and I felt that the flight attendant in my section was insistent on waiting for an evacuate command to come from the cockpit (which cannot always know what is happening in the back), had I felt that myself and nearby passengers were in imminent danger of death due to inaction, I dare say that I would have initiated the evacuation over the hesitation of the flight attendant.
The 67 philosophy professor will have interesting classes after this.
“What HAL did right”? Are you saying a futuristic supercomputer from the 1960s with sociopathic tendencies managed the evacuation?
Americans are normally whiny, offended and deflective when being called out and challenged. I spent 12 nights in Kyoto and Tokyo last November and learned more about Japan from the guides who we hired than my knowledge of Japan. I stayed at local hotels and dined in local restaurants. Their transit marvels me and their discipline awes me so much. Their trains and subways will never be duplicated here because we have no budgetary discipline and consistent long term plans plus more crimes and assaults added to the mix. They unequivocally have a superior culture than that of ours. Japan is the only G-7 country that has no natural resources. It rose from the ashes of the two US atomic bombs to become the country with the most global iconic 500 Fortune companies in the world. Every profession and ethnic group have their black sheep. Nothing is absolute and nobody is perfect. Listening will broaden your horizon. Read the Intercept &ProPublica on their websites to learn more about the society we live in. I make voluntary donations every December for their exceptional journalism and investigative reports.
Off the topic of Japanese culture, I want to comment on your post when you declared your position the day after Oct. 6th . It was quite foolish and irresponsible of you to take such a stance when the news was still fluid, raw and constantly changing. We are now three months later and much have emerged. Netanyahu is solely responsible for such attack that killed and captured his countrymen. Not to mention 20K+ Palestinian deaths so far. The same way that Bush Jr. was responsible for 9/11 attack. They both were war hawkish who had advanced knowledge of a potential attack on the country but failed to prevent it. In an ideal world of law and order, Biden, Netanyahu , Bush Jr. and Putin are cell mates who can look into each other’s soul to pass time in prison. But it will never happen. Ever. I am neither religious nor atheist but agnostic. But I felt Jerusalem was a Holy Land when I visited it in 2/95. American public and politicians never understand that bombings will widen and deepen the generational animosity because they never experienced it. You can win a conventional war using advanced weaponry and technology but not in a religious war. Religions demand absolute obedience with no questions asked. You can never reason with any religious zealous or fanatics. Just look at Sunni and Shi’a Muslims today. Palestinians must bear the consequences for supporting and living under successive terrorist leaders. Arafat was a hard core terrorist who terrorized Israelis and his Muslim brothers in the Mid-East. Kuwait Airways had four undercover air marshals on the flight we took from Athens to Kuwait City three decades ago. Leadership determines the country’s destiny or its civilians’ fate. We will also wait and see what will happen to us and this country later this year.
“Netanyahu is solely responsible for such attack that killed and captured his countrymen.”
“Bush Jr. was responsible for 9/11 attack.”
Seriously? You lost me there. But I do unabashedly admit that I fell victim to some propaganda after 10/07 (the slaughter of 45 babies, for example) and it was with that in mind that I made the initial cautionary post to stop heaping praise on Japanese culture when it was not even clear yet what happened onboard.
“Religions demand absolute obedience with no questions asked.”
This is a broad generalization. There are many brands/flavors/interpretations to each of the three Abrahamic faiths. Who is to say one is wrong or worse than the others? The loudest voice or most “fundamentalist” view is not necessarily the right one.
So what is the takeaway then on Israel-Palestine? How do you think Israel should have reacted to the attack on October 7th?
16 minutes to evacuate doesn’t seem particularly impressive considering multiple doors used and the urgency of an emergency.
I mean offloading just one door with everyone’s bags at a normal gate can be done in 20 minutes.
The delay in opening perfectly functional exit doors is the concerning one. Are the FAs being too deferential to waiting for the pilot’s command? Is there something wrong with SOP at JAL that made them wait for that command.
Shouldn’t take more than 10-30 seconds to assess an exit by a single trained FA.
It’s possible Japanese customs – either via being ingrained in policy or in relfex of the crew – impeded safe egress. And could have led to a really terrible outcome like the Aeroflot plane that caught fire on a hard landing.
What you say may or may not be true – but your questions are reasonable and that is exactly why the nauseating praise of the superiority of the Japanese culture displayed in this evacuation made me stop and question what really occurred onboard.
You (and Stuart) are the only ones nauseated. Had this been praise for Americans in any other situation, you both would be gloating with pride — “America F#%^ Yeah!! ” or how is it how you all love to scream? Good riddance to this blog and it’s click-baity nonsense content!
More baseless assumptions. Not your finest hour, Makoto. Bye bye.
General praise of the service culture in Japan happens routinely on a travel blog. So it was no wonder it was done so when applied to this incident. If you are against this you should be against the former as well.
When one thinks the world revolves around the US, too much praise of someone else would understandably be dizzying and “nauseating”.
No, the two are not mutually exclusive.
I do not think the world revolves around the USA or that the US has the superior culture. I do love, in general, the service culture in Japan and praise it every time I visit. But that’s very different than the (seemingly false) assumptions that were made about JL516.
I also don’t like to generalize and agree that it’s not always fair, but when it comes to Japan, there is such conformity that is probably the safest bet in the world. I worked for a Japanese company for 15 years and spent months there. The respect for whole over self is omnipresent, to the point that group think is a major flaw.
All of this being said that it doesn’t necessarily mean it would be a drastically different result in the US, but the Japanese deference to authority plays a significant part.
16 minutes to evacuate–I doubt in could be done much faster in any real world emergency situation with zero advance knowledge. The training exercises and official tests by Boeing where they “demonstrate” evacuation in 90 seconds are a total fraud.
I don’t have any issue with your comments about Japanese culture. Don’t pay much attention to all the woke Karens that think the only comments allowed about any culture are that the culture is question is undoubtedly superior the the American one.
The American Airlines 777 first officer (and former US Air Force flight instructor) who aims to deliver matter-of-fact analyses of aviation incidents, has just moments ago posted an updated analysis video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1VuXT7Twyc
Note that electronic communications with the aft-most flight attendants was cut off so an FA elected to evacuate without a direct command from the cockpit. Well done by the FA.
What nonsense. Of course there would be panic. However unlike many other nations, not just American, they actually have respect for authority and respect commands. Now go do and some research, start with Hofstede’s Dimensions which will show you countty by country by the variance. Dont just write nonsense, back it with with some proper research. This blog is turning into drivel.
Once again, I’d advise you to read the stories that are actually emerging from passengers onboard…
I did, hence, the comment that of course there is panic. Yet they behave in a much more orderly manner than those in the West, not just the US. You simply have to acknowledge the data proves that certain countries like Japan, are more orderly than those, of say America. Thus your statement from this article makes little or no sense. The data says it all.
Thanks for the coverage Matt. I didn’t hear about the crash and it’s good that the passengers survived. My sympathies to the 5 members of the crewmembers that perished. It appears that the plane caught on fire about 10 minutes after “landing” so if the doors opened about 5 minutes in, that would be about 5 minutes to deplane. At the same time, if people are sitting around and grab their backpacks, as terrible as that sounds, note that at least they’re not going into a panic attack. As long as there’s a steady, fast flow of passengers out the exits, it’s a good exit.
I dont like the approach you´re taking by basically differentiating everything to death. There´s a prevalent Japanese culture and the likewise applies to the USA. Simple as that.
Please elaborate. I don’t understand.