While Delta CEO Ed Bastian means well in trying to prevent disruptive passengers from simply going from one airline to the next to wreak havoc, the dragnet approach is not the right one, as the current no-fly list clearly demonstrates.
Delta Air Lines Again Tries To Create New No-Fly List
Last year Delta floated the idea of creating a new national no-fly list to be shared amongst airlines that would prevent disruptive passengers from boarding any commercial flight in the USA. Last week, Bastian sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland asking for his office to help set up this new watchlist.
Bastian’s letter stated:
“In addition to the welcome increase in enforcement and prosecutions, we are requesting you support our efforts with respect to the much-needed step of putting any person convicted of an on-board disruption on a national, comprehensive, unruly passenger ‘no-fly’ list that would bar that person from traveling on any commercial air carrier.”
While it might seem reasonable to want to protect from the public from thugs in the air, it remains questionable for an airline to demand that no other airline do business with that customer.
(I’ve argued that point extensively here)
> Read More: Delta Wants To Collude With Other Airlines To Ban “Bad” Passengers – Why I’m Against It
I continue to believe there’s a better alternative: prosecute immediately those who disturb flights and are kicked off. You want to disturb a flight? Fine, you’re going to get fined and potential jail time for doing so. Hold special night courts to expedite it. If every instance of misbehavior is actually followed through with swift and meaningful consequences, there should be little need to share “naughty” lists because passengers will not be repeat offenders.
I don’t trust airlines to effectively and fairly share intelligence, even if the end result would be utilitarian; that is providing the greatest good for the greatest number. Instead, we should use the mechanisms we have in place and aggressively punish those who act out on board with civil or criminal penalties.
The 9/11 era no-fly list has also shown us federal government disregard for due process, transparency, and frankly justice itself (read this horror story for example). I simply cannot support it, especially as we (hopefully) near the end stages of the pandemic and mask mandate.
CONCLUSION
The old adage may be “the power to tax is the power to destroy” but the power to add passengers to secretive lists with sketchy evidence is also the power to destroy. If someone acts up onboard, throw them in jail and fine the heck out of them. But blacklisting them, perhaps permanently, on all carriers is not a proportionate response nor a response anyone who values liberty and justice should be in favor of.
Tyrants are gonna be tyrannical. Glad I don’t fly Delta – nor will I start.
I would say this would require antitrust exemption.
Delta is the worst! I always try to avoid it, although I would rather fly Delta than American. Both suck though.
Go team United!
I disagree. Fines and slaps on the wrist do nothing. People need to have real and lasting consequences. The kind of behavior we’ve seen in the last five years is unacceptable in a functioning society. Flying is NOT a right. I applaud Delta for pushing this idea.
Delta wants to take billions in taxpayer money and then get the Federal government’s help to create a system that gives Delta sole authority to determine if a person can fly on any airline, existing or yet to be formed, for the remainder of the person’s life because the Delta FA said so. Unless they’re Diamond members, then they are exempt. Lance, that’s what you are defending?
You are typical Florida person…..
Lance is for giving an FA the capacity to be the judge and the jury of who gets to fly and who doesn’t, without due process.
The memo said CONVICTED. If he meant convicted in a court of law with guilt determined beyond a reasonable doubt, then no flight attendant could serve as judge jury and executioner.
What happened to this being a news blog? The FAA gave approval for the PW powered 777-200s to return yesterday and there isn’t even an article about this. A year ago this blog would have been the first place to cover it, and now it is just pictures of Ed Bastian with other rich white guys! Let’s get back to the coverage please!
Oh, that’s very sad news (for upgrades). But I will cover it! I still need more details – UA has put out no internal info on this and it is far too technical for me to understand from bulletins. Stay tuned.
I believe the no fly list is long over due. If you were one of the many airline workers who has been harmed, I believe you would have a different opinion then what you have expressed.
No, I would not feel differently if I was an airline employee. Your comments are deeply disrespectful to a long list of service workers in other industries that do experience similar behavior in their workplace. They do not have the option to ban the jerk for life from all similar businesses. I am not minimizing how unacceptable behavior of some people has become but airlines are not a special class and nearly everyone reading this has seen a small subset of airline workers behave in a manner that would give many people pause about enabling them to make final judgement on anything without due process review.
the NO FLY LIST Bastian proposed is not based on a FA’s list, its based on a conviction for a crime, that the passenger’s misbehavior elevated to a convicted crime.
Agree 100% Safe transportation from a company looks at 1) Keeping Customers safe, happy and provide a profit.
Many are thinking, they have a write to dictate to a Corporation; that if I would like to be unruly I have a right.
NO YOU DON’T. All customer’s want safe and wonderful travel experience! Not one with riots, criminals or tyrants. This situation is not tolerated. Normal people are getting tired of this attitude. Grow up people and educate yourselves.
I was on a Delta flight where people should have been thrown out, Most of us were disgusted. Delta we think have the right you they allow on their plane not yours.
Mr Bastian is welcome to put me on that no-fly list anytime- I have no intention of flying on any of the US-based carriers anytime soon.
Yes, because we are scared!
You really are clueless when it comes to the complexities of having the courts handle this. “Just open night courts!”
Avoid giving legal advice and stick to flying advice. Bastian is trying this approach precisely because what you’re suggesting is not feasible within any reasonable timeframe.
I flew DL from JFK to Accra, Ghana last year. They were almost militant in their announcements about wearing a mask. I hate drama but I wished I could have done something that would have banned me from future DL flights. I’d love to tell our travel office sorry, can’t book me on DL.
After having to deal with the stench of the Austin Sky Club, anybody of sound mind would voluntarily place themselves on the Delta No-Fly List.
I have not seen a sufficient level of professionalism in flight attendants to want them to be the main determinant of a do not fly list. I don’t object to Delta banning passengers for bad behavior.
I know of someone who got on Avis’ do not rent list because they were a few days late in filing an accident report. What if that became a national do not drive list?
For those who worry that someone could get on the no-fly list because a flight attendant was on a power trip, the request was for someone who was CONVICTED of an on-board disruption to be put on a no-fly list.
That’s a whole lot more reasonable than being put on it because a flight attendant thought she was being disrespected.
I’d support that request but only if that requirement was further narrowed to convictions for violence or dangerous actions or sexual assault.
Let me be clear, no administrative hearing should be sufficient. Only if someone were convicted of a criminal act in a court of law where he were shown guilty beyond a reasonable doubt should that person be put on a no fly list.
But with that narrowing and those restrictions, I have no problem with them being on a no fly list.
How would you address the well-documented racial inequality in the legal system? It is the issue of our time. Do you really want to defend what a future no-fly list demographic looks like if the standard is court conviction of airline disturbance crime? This will be a DC bait-and-switch. Getting something on the books that seems narrow and reasonable and then quietly extending the reach in the direction powerful interests want it to go. At least part of how we ended up with mess of racial disparities in criminal justice. Rules, well meaning or not, in the name if safety that often evolved into defending authority without oversight or limitation and finally assumption of guilt by certain groups in absence of information. This will not end well.
You’re okay with using summary procedures to deny people their liberty (expedited night courts that could result in jail time) but the do not fly list lacks sufficient due process for you to support it? Also, I’d note that the part of Bastian’s letter you quote indicates that people would only be placed on this list if they are “convicted of an on-board disruption,” suggesting that individuals placed on this no-fly list would have already received due process.
In any event, if there’s a potential for jail time, the defendants WOULD have to be afforded due process (like the right to an attorney and the ability to confront their accusers) that would make your expedited night courts impossible. I suppose you could require the witnesses to every airline disturbance to deboard and accompany the defendant to “night court” in order to be available to testify at trial, but that wouldn’t really make your idea any less absurd…
Also, why are airline disturbances of such great importance that there should be special courts and expedited proceedings for these crimes? Our criminal legal system is lacking resources as it is, and this hardly seems to me to be a top priority for where we should be expending them.
Can we keep things simple? We allow cops to kill people because they didn’t obey orders and we collectively yawn.
Can we start killing more people in the air? The flight attendants can just shoot them dead. Sir, wear amaksk. Sir, final warning, wear a mask. Bam!
Would be fun to see.
“Fun” is an odd statement. You volunteering to be first up?
You got it Debit! Flight attendants on patrol.
FLOP…..
I’m a flight attendant who was assaulted on a flight. This list wouldn’t be for someone who was rude and didn’t say thank you, this would be for passengers who are physically abusive and convicted. Each instance causes massive disruptions to the travel itineraries of one hundred and fifty other people and cost tens of thousands of dollars to the airline and even more to others who lose out on time with family and missed connections. Get hit in the face simply for doing your job and come back and tell me you want that person back on the plane the next day with another airline. Once you’ve proven violent then your right to fly doesn’t trump everyone else’s right for a safe and uneventful flight. This is the start of conversation not a fully fleshed out plan; more needs to be discussed if it is to be considered further.
Rachel I stand with you. Sadly, this idea is about a year and a half too late. But better late than never!
Rachel is correct in my opinion. A “No Fly List” in todays terms have to generally do to passengers potential risk to aviation (I’m being very generic here as many reasons to get on todays interpretation of “risk to aviation”). I don’t see much difference for the reasons today and those for banning someone like Rachel describes. As long as they are convicted in a court of law, based on the evidence presented, they should be added to the existing “No Fly List” with maybe a different categorization than IS but the difference between IS and a passenger that assaults an FA is very thin. Today we ban people from flying based on what they could do. In this case we are proposing to ban people for what they did do and were convicted of.
Matthew, looking at the exact quote provided the Delta CEO said “much-needed step of putting any person convicted of an on-board disruption on a national, comprehensive, unruly passenger ‘no-fly’ list that would bar that person from traveling on any commercial air carrier.” I believe that this “convicted” criteria meets your stated preference of “ I continue to believe there’s a better alternative: prosecute immediately those who disturb flights and are kicked off. You want to disturb a flight? Fine, you’re going to get fined and potential jail time for doing so”.
They would have to be prosecuted and “convicted” first and then placed on a do not travel list.
In addition your point of more prosecutions in a more timely manner is greatly needed
When someone commits a serious crime such as assault, bodily injury, interfering with a flight crew by not following mandated instructions, they should be banned from flying any airline. 30,000 feet is not the place for violent, rude, disturbing behavior to take place. I’m tired of hearing lame excuses for dangerous persons causing a major disturbance for the crew and the passengers. Lock them them up and upon release, let them take Amtrak.
If a passenger No Fly list Is going to be created to keep difficult or unruly passengers out of the air, a similar list should be created for airline employees who trigger or exacerbate some of these incidents with their bad behavior. Perhaps then everyone will think twice about acting out.
Sure how many airline employees have been convicted of that, and what crime were they charged of?
If a passenger knows they could be put on a nationwide no-fly list and is disruptive or hassles the crew, they’re consenting to be placed on the list. If you don’t want to be on a no-fly list, don’t be an a-hole.