An interesting turn of events: European demand for air travel is crashing in the West but growing in the East. What does this mean for transatlantic travel this summer to the U.S.?
A Tale Of Two Europes: East Vs. West Air Travel To U.S.
Overall, global travel to the USA is dropping compared to last year. While stories like the one I covered yesterday about two German teens being imprisoned and strip-searched do not (yet) dispotisively prove any change in US policy at the border, the data suggests these headline-grabbing stories are turning prospective visitors away from the U.S.
Per U.S. government figures, the total number of global visitors by air, sea, and land declined by 11.6% in March 2025 compared to the same month last year. Overall, global visitors to U.S. are down 3.3% in 2025 compared to 2024.
Here, I want to focus on European air traffic, which has traditionally been lucrative (European visitors fly to the USA and spend money) and growing on a year-on-year basis as the world emerges from the pandemic. But what is emerging this year is a geographic bifurcation, with Western European nations generally showing a decline (in some cases, a steep decline) while traffic from Eastern Europe is growing.
The chart below is startling: we see big increases in traffic this year from Slovenia, Poland, Russia, and Romania but crashes in traffic from Luxembourg, Iceland, Denmark, Germany, Ireland, Norway, Hungary, Switerland, Spain, and Austria (and those are just the countries down more than 20%).
European Visitors To The U.S.
Airplane arrivals (March 2024 vs March 2025)
Interestingly, perhaps with the exception of Viktor Orbán-led Hungary, we see traffic declining from more left-leaning nations and increasing from more right-leaning nations. For purposes of our discussion, however, I am much less interested in the politics as in the absolute numbers.
I suspect U.S. airlines CEOs at American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, and United Airlines are in panic over these numbers as we approach the busy summer travel season…can flights even make money if this trend continue or worsens as more “horror stroies” are shared (and yes, sometimes sensationalized) by the media?
I still don’t have my August tickets to Germany booked and I’m in a holding pattern for now: I truly hope Europeans won’t stay away, because the U.S. needs European visitors: the multiplier effect of a steep downturn in visitors from Europe will ripple across the economy, though it may leads to some great airfare deals to Europe later this summer as carriers have already committed to routes and sold seats on flights that may not fill up as projected.
Mark this as a developing story, but these latest figures are concerning and may only be the tip of the iceberg if a trade war escalates and the U.S. alienates other NATO nations by pivoting away from Ukraine toward Russia.
You really need to alter the name of your blog for the next 4 years to “Live and Let’s Trash Trump”. lol
You think this is trashing Trump? Why? Are you one of his supporters?
Proud Trump supporter here obviously.
But in this story I feel you went out of your way to not make it political and report the facts as available accurately.
And you moved off, somewhat, from accepting the Germany girls entire story as facts.
But yea, you have made it abundantly clear you dislike Trump’s policy decisions without bashing the man himself. And to me there is nothing wrong with how you do it. That’s certainly not how I do it, but hey not everyone can be correct 99% of the time.
Time will tell if he was right in his views on how we were taken advantage of for decades in both trade and support of our supposed allies. I’m willing to wait it out because as another wise man once said…..Elections have consequences.
If I wanted to destroy a country, I can’t think of anything I would do differently than trump has.
-The stock market has tanked.
-China is going to make deals with the rest of the world to cut us out of trade.
-The Doge douches took down the security apparatus for our govt. agencies and allowed Russia access.
-all our soft power around the world is gone
-the Europeans with money no longer want to visit
-he is openly talking about exiling US citizens
-the tariffs have barely taken effect, just wait until we run out of the stuff that was shipped in beforehand.
On the other hand, if you dreamt of working in a sweatshop making sneakers, your day may be coming soon!
Remember the Golden Age when our enemies feared us, our allies liked and respected us, the stock market was doing great, the odds of a recession were low, inflation was coming down, consumer sentiment was terrific, the rule of law was paramount, and Social Security was safe? Each of those is now completely reversed and that Golden Age was six months ago. I have yet to hear cogent arguments about why any of these awful changes are good for America, just name calling and misdirection.
Let us all thank His Majesty Stable Genius The First for ridding Orangeland of scientists, nurses, investors, foreign tourists, bright foreign students, for humbling that cocky stock market, for teaching a lesson to all US allies that Orangeland needs no allies, and last but not least, for turning Orangeland into a faithful vassal of His Majesty Vladimir The Terrible.
@Dave Edwards – “… Time will tell if he was right…” How much time? 3 years? 4 years? And in the mean time markets tank (as well as my 401k) people are losing their jobs left and right, we may go into a recession, etc.
I thought he “loved” the American people. Sure doesn’t seem to care how his “policies” are affecting the American people.
Oh, and on a completely different subject… the wars are still going on. Didn’t he say repeatedly that he would be able to end the war between Russia and Ukraine “in 24 hours”
Lol…if you still feel “time will tell” regarding Trump you are telling the world you are a member of the MAGA cult. There’s no logical way to explain how a functioning adult could such a thing. And remember cult members are basically addicts, who are addicted to a person. They must be deprogrammed in order to be functioning members of society again. But until that reprogramming occurs, they are useless. Based upon prior posts on this blog, I don’t hold much hope for Dave Edwards.
At this rate by winter UA will be positioning 787’s to Tampa and Pensacola. A 28% decline from Germany is staggering. That could lead to a lot of these flights going out with money losing loads. Not to mention that given tariffs we will see cargo being gutted, something that is not even being covered with data yet.
Speaking of money losing loads!
This is going to be great for Matt and he correctly is waiting to book a trip if he is correct about prices dropping. It’s a win/win situation for Americans willing to take the risks of visiting 3rd world countries. And yes, much of Europe is a risk for Americans based on their hatred of the very people whose parents, grandparents and great grandparents allowed them to be free. And in the case of many Jews, to still be alive.
As for airlines profits we are probably on the same page, it’s their responsibility to become profitable and if cutting trips overseas, it’s on them. Yes it may cut future orders for new planes, but again none of us feel bad for Boeing. No matter what….NO Government Bailouts for airlines.
As for those in the hospitality industry that may lose jobs, as a wise man once said….Learn to Code.
Mr D. Edwards clearly lives in a fantasy world (his allegiance to His Majesty Stable Genius The First is more evidence of that), in which Americans are hated in Europe. Sorry, that is just the reverse. Americans are seen by Europeans, and especially by tourism professionals as polite, pleasant and well-heeled people. But in order to know that, one needs to be reality-anchored, and to live in, or go frequently to, Europe. Not live in a Red State…
But on the other hand, many people are incensed at the insane, dangerous, and dishonest policies of His Majesty Stable Genius The First, and will refuse to set foot in Orangeland. Danish tourism towards Orangeland is indeed not exactly an investor’s dream.
Golden Age, six months ago? That is a very poor argument for hating Trump.
This is simply not the time to travel to the US.
Tourism is for relaxation. Imagine trying to enter the US and the passport control officer is an idiot and empowered MAGA racist, like “Dave”, with superpowers to put you in jail.
All that to enter an increasingly pariah and xenophobic country? No, thank you.
Better wait.
“In March 2025, there were 4.541 million air arrivals from foreign countries to the U.S. This represents a decrease of 9.7% compared to March 2024”
I’ll play, how many of those 4.5 million ended up in jail? How many of those people reported having issues entering the United States? You people make it so easy to believe those with funny names are idiots and even if you have money, we don’t need you. Stay home, the enchiladas and burritos are better there anyways. Granted we do have toilets instead of rivers to relieve yourself in, and running water to clean your hands afterwards.
Dear brainless and racist Dave. Exactly!
Thank you for make my point.
You should be the new ambassador for tourism in the US, since you epitomize the entire thinking of that government.
A bunch of the TSA agents working INTL at my home airport have been there since pre-Covid. When Trump got inaugurated, they didn’t suddenly get a patch update to become the Gestapo, so chill. Reality is no different now than it was before–have your papers straight, don’t be a criminal, don’t act stupid, and enjoy your trip. Or let the media be the boss of you. Also, Trump received the biggest support among us Latinos that any candidate has ever gotten. But it’s all just xenophobia and racism, right? Or we’re brainwashed, or we’re this, or we’re that…
Yes, TSA and DHS agents acting like Gestapo has certainly preceded Trump…”have your papers straight, don’t be a criminal, don’t act stupid” is also the language other authoritarian regimes used and still use to clamp down on dissent.
The geatapo murdered people. Making you take your laptop or toothpaste out of your bag is not murdering you. Don’t be so quick to cheapen the acts of the Nazis.
You need to educate yourself on what the Gestapo did and the extent of their campaign of fear, empowered by the leadership at the top…they were not just the executioners.
FU There are no bad Daves
Or sorry. You meant a specific Dave. I’d comment, but I programmed my system to ignore some people, so I don’t know who he is.
My compliments to our FLOTUS. While she has maintained a low profile, it’s nice to see such an astonishing increase in travelers from Slovenia.
Yes, all 42 of them. 🙂
It’s probably chain migration or Melania’s extended family.
Free Melania!!
44% drop for Iceland or Luxembourg is like 200 fewer people?
Yet Timmy likes to use these misleading DOT statistics.
What is 28% down from Germany?
When one looks at the coutries with a decline of 10%+ we are looking at a combined population of around 275 million people (that’s 75 million less then the total of the US).
My view is that anyone who ever thought that the USA was a ‘normal’ Western liberal democracy had been deluded, and blaming that on the current president is also comical considering that a previous one had been elected in 2008 promising to do away with the Guantanamo prison and re-elected after not keeping his promise (and not forgetting that they’re not signed up to the International Criminal Court). That’s not to say that the USA is objectively bad because of that (there are pros and cons to everything), but the reality is that detentions without warrants, overreacting law enforcement agencies etc are part of the way that country has been set up and function differently to the rest of the world.
I’ve always been a bit wary about visiting the USA, but, to be fair to them, I have had no real issues other than the occasional unacceptably long passport control queue whenever I visited, and the change in administration wouldn’t have affected any travel plans (though I am not keen on returning soon because it’s bloody expensive!). On the other hand, those who used to have a distortedly hyper positive view of the US (maybe due to overconsumption of movies and series hailing from there) have been given a reality check on what can happen to anyone on a bad day… although I suspect that many of them will be dumb enough to think it’s all the fault of this or that politician.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts pm. You should understand until recently the US functioned under a system of checks and balances. A system that worked well and that as an American, I take great pride in. The judicial and legislative branches are now ignored by the executive branch. I am sorry you think we are so dumb and I hope you live in a Utopian society.
How exactly was the US system of checks and balances working for those detained in Guantanamo without trial or access to legal representation?
Your answer didn’t post in the correct order. You can find it below
pm I was correcting your original post that Obama (executive president) kept Gitmo open. It was a bi-partisan veto from the legislative body. I don’t like misinformation.
But you like propaganda that downplay everything.
Just like when they never use torture but only interrogation on prisoners.
But if it’s the Chinese or Russia you will never see the word interrogation.
@Eskimo , I am not sure about what you’re trying to get at. You’ve literally corroborated my point by comparing the US to countries that aren’t fully democratic. I feel a bit uncomfortable when visiting the USA, and more than a bit uncomfortable when visiting China or Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, I am super relaxed when visiting somewhere like Taiwan, or even places like Brazil and Kenya where I am quite careful about security but still not worried about state actors messing up with my human rights.
this is precisely the type of data that should be watched on a regular basis but esp. right now in the midst of all kinds of instability.
However, just because you see data doesn’t mean you know or have considered all of the factors that influence the data.
1. Eastern and western Easter was on the same date this year (just last weekend – in the 2nd quarter) but Eastern (Orthodox) Easter was in May last year while western Easter was the end of March. That could influence the differences between yoy east and west Europe in general.
2. There are significant differences between countries in western Europe – and it is hard not to see tariff and Ukraine influence in the results. As soon as the televised Trump-Zelensky White House meltdown took place, the UK and France saw opportunities to take the leadership of Europe – even together – over Ukraine,
The UK and France bought have healthy defense industries while Germany is by far the most hit country in Europe by tariffs. Germany is faced w/ spending far more on defense and also seeing its manufacturing export economy hit either by tariffs or a new trade agreement.
3. There are big differences between US carrier JV hubs; Germany and Switzerland and even Belgium are hard hit – bad news for the Star JV – with the UK and Spain a little better off and the oneworld hubs in the middle – and France the least negatively impacted of the large JV hubs comparable to Italy with the Netherlands and Greece up – the largest markets for DL and and the SkyTeam JV.
so, yeah, this stuff needs to be watched, the reasons for the changes are not likely entirely as some think, and the impact to each of the big 3 US carriers and their JV partners is and will be different.
From the Big 3 US carriers’ perspective, I’d be more worried about a potential decline in discretionary spending at home from a potential self-inflicted recession in the US. Europeans are avoiding the US, but Americans are still going abroad.
We’ve seen a broader trend of US3 carriers pulling out of European point-of-sale markets in the past 10 years, which could be reflective of the different rates at which the US and Europe recovered from the Great Recession – places like STR, DUS, MAN, BHX are a few examples that have lost all US carrier service. A lot of the recent US3 transatlantic growth has been in markets with a primarily US point-of-sale anyway – places like Italy/Spain, etc.
Obama did order Gitmo closed and that order was vetoed by a bi-partisan vote. So the executive branch was stopped by the legislative. This is what we are missing now
The comment above is a response to pm
So the checks and balances were actually deployed to undermine basic human rights, and that’s somehow a good thing?
Wow, really cool data set. Interesting to see how tourism travel has completely dropped off and if business travel didn’t increase substantially this would be way worse.
Western Europe YTD
Business Visas up 22.6%
Tourism Visas down 24.5% but it’s a greater than 3 to 1 ratio of Tourists to Business
Similar when you look at Asia, Africa, and Central America. I’m surprised that the Middle East is up in both. Thanks for pointing this out!
The business visas are only up because overseas companies are trying to navigate Trumps tariffs hands on, when that stops US business travel will decline or plummet like turism.
I’m from Denmark and have been to the US over 50 times in my life and I will not set foot on US soil for now and most probably never again.
Your perogative. But really. No one cares. The world keeps turning.
Certainly not shocking a lunatic liberal isn’t coming back when you read this.
“ After all, about 15% of the Danish population emigrated to the US between 1870 and 1920, mostly to states with climates that resemble Denmark – Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon, and Washington State.”
You people did enough damage in that 4 out of 5 of these states are liberal sh#tholes in their cities.
As David said, we will be fine with you and your little wooden shoes.
Like with Trump bad mouthing our head of state and you doing the same to me, will not work.
One tiny question though, what are you doing on a frequent flyer and travel block, when you don’t even know that the wooden shoes originate from Holland/The Netherlands while being rancorous towards Denmark?
@Peter… That’s pretty funny. Nicely done!
Like with Trump bad mouthing our head of state and you doing the same to me, will not work.
One tiny question though, how much of a frequent flyer can you be, when you don’t even know that the wooden shoes originate from Holland/The Netherlands while being rancorous towards Denmark?
I have been to more countries in the world, then there are American states, doesn’t sound like you ever left yours.
I actually think most of this is overblown. By the end of summer I definitely see the numbers somehow magically being close to being on par with 2024. And then there are the Christmas markets and summer 2025. Something tells me by that time most people will simply stop caring. Trump is old anyway and overweight not sure he will live another 3-4 years
JD isn’t a winner. In fact he is worse in many ways.
Apparently you care David and im sure a lot of Americans will aswell, as my decision reflects a lot of European and Canadian individuals and businesses that doesn’t percieve the US or to some extent Americans as trustworthy going forward.
That will be visible on the bottom line of America on a micro and macro level.
But who cares the world keeps turning.
I really am curious how some of the people on this blog and others that come on saying things like “You’re so liberal, Matthew” or “Live and let’s trash trump should be the new name of the blog”… what is it you’re mad about on this article?
That our President calling Canada a 51st state or “governor Trudeau” has consequences and just isn’t the way you speak to friends, personally or globally?
Or that telling Denmark, a close NATO ally, that we’re getting Greenland one way or there other is also not a way you speak to friends?
Or how we, as the US, unilaterally raised tariffs on EVERYONE, friend or foe (sometimes not foe) and on our closest neighbors by the most, at times? Do you all not understand that those actions have consequences?
Even putting aside stories like the two German teenagers backpacking where… I personally think there’s a degree of stories like that getting amplified in the current environment vs a specific new directive from the Administration to Customs officers.
Do many of you diehard trump people think that we could just say and do all these things to our friends and that nothing would happen?
It’s almost as though many Trump people (not conservatives, trump people) seem to think actions and words have no consequences…
With some of these countries you call friends, we don’t need enemies.
These friends have F’s us for years on trade and underpaying for military support.
However I don’t blame them when we were idiots for allowing it. They are now angry it’s changing but they should appreciate we allowed them to pull it off for as long as we did.
You guys are as angry as the crybabies hearing they now have to start paying their student loans back. It’s a glorious age in America for many of us and we appreciate America finally fighting back against scammers, domestic and foreign.
did absolutely ANYONE watch The Apprentice before or AFTER you know who was elected?
it’s as silly as some of the chest-banging on aviation social media to think that the US is going to forcibly acquire Canada and Greenland. When the VP of the US goes to Greenland and only goes to a US military base, there isn’t much teeth behind the rhetoric
some people and countries need to grow a little skin.
as for the oft-repeated stories about immigration abuse, it happens in just about every country. Anecdotes really don’t matter even though they get broadcast.
Lots of countries should be worried about the economic remaking of the world that the US President is trying to do. Economists are very divided whether it is necessary or will succeed but there are real implications just as there are about statements that the US is going to force Europe to defend Europe; Americans are tired of being the police force for the world and paying for it while other countries have rich social programs that are so far removed from the way US society operates that it is frightful.
should Germany and Switzerland be afraid that their massive (proportional) trade deficit of goods w/ the US be coming to an end? should Germany and the rest of Europe be concerned that they might have to cut some of their social programs in order to fund defense at far higher levels than they have done since WWII? you better believe it.
words don’t matter but real policy changes do – alot.
France and the UK recognize that they can adapt and lead in a changed environment while some of the countries that are seeing the biggest declines in tourism to the US are the ones that are demonstrating the least adaptation skills.
it is most notable that Mexico is most exposed of western countries to a change in the economic status quo, fought back pretty hard at first but has now dialed down the rhetoric and appears to be working hard w/ the US to come to a deal.
the only people that are threatened are those that don’t recognize the need to adapt and are unwilling to do so.
Again. I’ll note my question was why you’re upset or calling Matthew a leftie commie or trump-hater because of reporting on the consequences of actions you claim to support.
Do you just not like seeing that Trump’s actions have consequences and would prefer to live in a fox news bubble of ignorance about the impact of Trump’s actions.
Whether you support what he’s done or not.. the anger seems to be toward people like Matthew who are reporting about aviation-related consequences of what Trump has done, not whether or not they should’ve been done.
yes. “These friends have F’s us for years on trade and underpaying for military support.”
We all know the common trump talking points that completely ignore that we’re currently the richest country to ever exist on earth and arguably the most powerful in large part because so many countries have decided they WILL voluntarily rely on us for military support that gives us incredible leverage. But sure… take talking points with no backing.
The Economist probably said it best:
“IF YOU failed to spot America being “looted, pillaged, raped and plundered by nations near and far” or it being cruelly denied a “turn to prosper”, then congratulations: you have a firmer grip on reality than the president of the United States. It’s hard to know which is more unsettling: that the leader of the free world could spout complete drivel about its most successful and admired economy. Or the fact that on April 2nd, spurred on by his delusions, Donald Trump announced the biggest break in America’s trade policy in over a century—and committed the most profound, harmful and unnecessary economic error in the modern era.”
But again… People are now Trump haters or lefties because they pop the Maga bubble that these actions did have consequences?
That’s just an ignorant choice to pretend his actions had no repercussions. They did. Hiding your head in the sand on the topic does nothing.
First off, I’m with you on the hate against Matt is unfounded. The man allows every viewpoint without moderation in almost every case.And both Tim and Max put good arguments out there without name calling, congratulating on that.
As for the supposed consequences, I agree there will be, which is the goal. Only time will tell if they were good or bad for American citizens, which really is all the matters to me and most legal Americans. I’m optimistic they will be for the better in time.
fair enough. thanks for the thoughtful reply
absolutely nowhere have I directed anger at Matthew or anyone else.
I have said that actions are predictable and that started w/ Trump on The Apprentice.
He loves to be the center of attention, gets a kick out of watching markets swing by trillions of dollars based on his words, and have repeatedly noted that the current environment requires intense focus on data and the accurate interpretation of it.
The biggest drops in tourism are coming from those countries that ECONOMICALLY are the most threatened by a change in the world order and are responding to childish threats – even if on a national scale
I don’t excuse or exalt any position. I do have the ability not just with this situation but w/ everything else to see through the rhetoric to the real drivers.
and I have also repeatedly said that I respect Matthew for taking stands – as do I. I respect him and others that are willing to take stands and to accept the consequences of their decisions IN STARK CONTRAST to people who who demonize one side or the other and argue incessantly.
just let people make their point, accurately interpret facts or at least consider all of the factors that might be at play and then agree to disagree
and then recognize that the current US Pres does have an ECONOMIC agenda for which is willing to fight and every agenda has casualties. A reshuffling of where inbound tourists come from and whether they will be replaced w those from other countries or an inflow of capital to build new factories is the issue that matters.
“absolutely nowhere have I directed anger at Matthew or anyone else.”
Without going into your history at OMAAT, you absolutely have attacked authors for presenting facts about changes in travel patterns directly related to actions of the Trump administration. Your own inability to remember what you write doesn’t change the reputation you’ve built for yourself.
Your attack on authors presenting data started with Delta’s change in 1Q forecast in early March and continued from there.
I’m certainly not going to argue with you about your kindergarten understanding of trade policy. You’ve already made your MAGA colors quite clear elsewhere. There is no “reshuffling” of tourists on a 1:1 basis. There’s a significant drop in tourism to the US.
No one should attack Matthew, Ben, or Gary for presenting that information. But, at least now, I’m glad we agree on that going forward.
this is LALF, sir.
If you want to argue about what took place on OMAAT, go there.
don’t try to manipulate what I say here or anywhere else.
Matthew is more than capable of reading and comprehending.
he also is not so thin-skinned that he can’t accept disagreements about his STATEMENTS – without personal attacks.
and for all of the quotes from outside sources, I would suggest you spend some time reading the Wall Street Journal. They have good analysis of what Trump is trying to accomplish, how the global economy works and why it might or might not succeed
and I specifically said that Trump is very likely willing to trade some tourists from a few countries for other parts of the macroeconomic formula including investment in US manufacturing.
read what is written and respond to THAT, not your interpretations of it
btw, you were notably absent the last few days, here and all of a sudden very engaged.
Yeah, we noticed.
“If you want to argue about what took place on OMAAT, go there.
don’t try to manipulate what I say here or anywhere else.”
Then don’t claim to not attack authors for presenting data when you do and have. But I’m glad we’re agreed that your past actions of doing just that have no place in a constructive and future dialogue. Perhaps you can learn new things, Tim.
“btw, you were notably absent the last few days, here and all of a sudden very engaged.
Yeah, we noticed.”
Thanks for missing me? So?
Seems you have no life except to track whether I’m on message boards. I couldn’t really say where you’ve been because I don’t track your whereabouts.
“and for all of the quotes from outside sources, I would suggest you spend some time reading the Wall Street Journal. ”
Seems you don’t have a subscription to the WSJ. I do and they’re certainly not supporting the Trump policies as you suggest. Or else you’re purposefully ignoring very pointed articles and headlines.
absolutely nowhere did I say that the WSJ supports Trump’s agenda.
They have done multiple stories on what Trump says he is trying to achieve and why he might or might not achieve.
True journalism expresses all sides of a story and also allows healthy debate.
I do have a WSJ subscription but don’t have a Diio subscription. The former is for the public. The latter is for aviation professionals and costs way more than any independent participant in social media can afford.
all the quotes in the world mean nothing if some people can’t accurately read and respond to what is written.
pleasant and productive social media interaction comes from people that are willing to share their thoughts and allow others to do so with nobody belittling others.
some of us understand that latter principle. others, not at all.
“The latter is for aviation professionals and costs way more than any independent participant in social media can afford.”
Apparently, not. Though I’ll note again that the only reason you seem annoyed about it is since you make up so much and call it “fact” without having any access to any of the data. And instead, start randomly calling people AA or UA management as you’ve called me both in the past as well as other users on OMAAT that dared call you out on your “Facts” about UA or DL. Again, never admitting you’re wrong when presented with data, just acknowledging that you say A LOT with no data whatsoever and present it as fact when it is not.
“pleasant and productive social media interaction comes from people that are willing to share their thoughts and allow others to do so with nobody belittling others.”
There’s no belittling. just noting how you already admitted you don’t have any data for much of what you claim but you still state it as fact.
You’ve also ALREADY gone off on other authors for publishing stories about a decline in international air travel yet now seem agitated that you’re reminded of the things YOU have written. I didn’t write them. You did. Now you’re mad that you wrote them and are reminded about them despite saying “absolutely nowhere have I directed anger at Matthew or anyone else.”
You can change your views and, rightfully so, you never should’ve gone off on other authors for just presenting travel pattern data.
“and for all of the quotes from outside sources, I would suggest you spend some time reading the Wall Street Journal. They have good analysis of what Trump is trying to accomplish, how the global economy works and why it might or might not succeed”
And to remind what you said, no. The WSJ doesn’t have a neutral view about what’s currently happening. They have a very direct view. Let’s not pretend they do. Yes, they’ve given the administration’s perspective but you’d be hard-pressed to say they don’t have an opinion about it. They do. You present them as some neutral newspaper just reporting the pros and cons of the biggest tax ever levied on Americans. They have a view and it certainly is not neutral so let’s not pretend it is.
But thanks again for missing me. What a strange thing to write.
I’d also note, Tim. Did you even notice you were not mentioned or named but decided to write several paragraphs about how you never attacked authors for presenting data on international travel patterns. Ironic that you felt compelled to respond since you have, and quite recently.
Tim is showing his true self again.
It’s a matter of time here but LOL are you trying to expedite for Tim kicked out of here before his OMAAT ban is lifted?
Fluffy Tim would be Dunn once and for all?
it’s obvious that you live in a world where you think that if you yell something long enough it becomes fact and you also are as determined to get rid of anyone that dares provide a point of view that you – and your employer don’t want
Diio is for aviation professionals, specifically those that work in network management roles. You ARE a paid professional doing everything you can to argue points that exist only in your head
Nobody cares about the specific market share on ORD=LGA. You just aren’t capable of admitting that you were set up to argue with a tool that IS used by aviation professionals – which means you aren’t here to exchange ideas with people but to push an agenda that your employer wants whether they know what you are doing or not.
The Wall Street Journal has provided multiple articles and perspectives on the tariff issue. The fact that you are incapable of finding the balance they provide and try to assume that anyone that doesn’t embrace your imbalance speaks volumes about you, not me and not Matthew.
You never learn to respect other people’s opinions or accept facts you don’t like.
If the data that Matthew provides continues to be reinforced in future data releases, then it is United and the LH Group that will be most negatively impacted while Delta and the SkyTeam JV is likely least affected. THAT is what the data shows.
the only true self that is being shown is Eskimo and Max’s very deep desire to push me off of this site so they can spew whatever they want.
Matthew has proven that he is not going to let this site turn into the zoo that other sites are regardless of whether I am there or not.
A little “remote working time” on an island w/o internet might give max a little time to do some old fashioned reading and thinking about how to get along w/ others and learn to tolerate different perspectives.
and the most direct takeaway from this data in this article is that not every country or company will be equally impacted by whatever happens in DC.
I will say I wish you and Max could find a way to get along, but indeed, I’m deleting a lot of very nasty impersonation “Dim Tunn” posts behind the scenes and I wish people would stop wasting my time.
Hi Matthew,
First, thank you for being the firewall that prevents this site from degenerating into the chaos that others have.
Second, this is your site and you aren’t a newbie. Max says he has participated on it for years. You should be able to tell whether his level of activity over the past 2 weeks since I started participating here is comparable to what he has done before, including interacting with any one person. I strongly suspect that there has been a significant increase in activity on Max’s part and esp. directed to me compared to what has been the case w/ any other person.
Third, I figured out a long time ago that, if you let people talk long enough, they will speak what is in their hearts. Police interrogators understand the principle well. Eskimo spoke what he and others desire which is to make sure I don’t even have an opportunity to succeed on this site.
Fourth, you genuinely should care and know who in general is participating on your site. I have known for decades that there are airline management employees that are actively engaged in aviation social media, a direct result of America West which passed to American and now to United. I fully get your allegiance to United but there is no other management team that is more committed to trashing other airlines while also being so paranoid about anything negative that is said about them. Max proved he is not just an every day participant in aviation social media by arguing over a very specific market share using a tool that is used only by a relatively small handful of network-related aviation professionals. Your site should not be reduced to a place where any management team’s employees can bully others around.
I live in the real and pragmatic world and know that sometimes people can’t and don’t want to get along because they stand to lose too much by playing by the rules.
I would like to propose that, based on your analysis in item 2 above, you limit Max’s ability to respond to me. It is clear to everyone that he is beyond fixated with what I have to say and wants to argue incessantly. How about you tell max that he gets a very small number of opportunities to reply to me in any article, week, or month. He also cannot start a new reply anywhere on the site during the same time period or article and address the same topic which I have addressed.
And, you know what? Because I believe in justice, I am willing to accept the same restriction on me. However, I don’t chase Max down to argue w/ him. I provide real data and discussion points while he just argues so that restriction on me only serves to cut off his ability to argue.
Finally, you need to make it clear that discussing what happens or happened anywhere else on any other aviation site as well as personal attacks of any kind are grounds for some time in the middle of the cornfield. It is a personal affront to you for anyone to come here thinking this site is just part of some continuous internet on which they can discuss whatever happens anywhere else on the internet.
You promised you would not allow attacks and you would maintain a decorum and I expect that you can and will do that.
You have my email address as well as Max’s.
It’s time to make it clear that you want a place where people can exchange ideas and that will be done in a congenial format and those that cannot comply can go play on other sites.
Thank you for your careful consideration.
I appreciate this, Tim. And I appreciate MaxPower as well…and even Eskimo’s sniping remarks directed toward me.
And as you know, comments are not related to clicks and probably I’d attract more clicks if I eliminated any controversial comments. But I don’t like to censor comments even as I want this place to be about the free exchange of ideas, not a haven for personal attacks.
The comments in the United FA section really got nasty…overtly racial when I don’t see any link to skin color in the story (didn’t involve you or Max). I think about censoring discussion like that. I probably should since it’s so demeaning, although it shows how the idea of race is so central in this culture.
And yes, I don’t know why so you live rent free in so many people’s heads…or why you love Delta so much for that matter.
But I have no problem with you turning every discussion back to Delta…I really don’t. It’s part of what makes you endearing and I think you make many good and reasonable points. And while facts can be distorted by one and all, I believe you are genuine and I value that in this space.
To Max, you’ve been a long-time reader and commenter and I am very thankful for you – I think we agree on many issues and you are right to call Tim out in matters where he errs. But I do think you need to leave Tim alone for a while…for your own sake. It’s just pointless and can also come across as mean-spirited. It’s not that I disagree with the points you are making, but just let Tim go and try to focus exclusively on the issues Tim raises without talking about Tim himself. Tim, same goes for you. Doesn’t matter where Max works (I have no idea). He’s entitled to his opinion and he presents facts too that are worthy of discussion.
I’ll think more about it. To be honest, I stopped reading the back-and-forth in the UA vs. AA in ORD post because it got to be too much for me.
Let’s respect one another. I’m trying to find the right balance.
Oh good god. Get over yourself. You replied to me twice above. I didn’t reply to your initial reply. I replied to myself. You replied to that too. I didn’t even reply to any of your other strange comments (where you replied to MANY other people to make sure you had the last word)
“First, thank you for being the firewall that prevents this site from degenerating into the chaos that others have.”
Let’s start here. I have never been banned for creating the chaos that YOU create. You have repeatedly been banned from other websites for creating the chaos and delusional arguments you keep repeating. It might just be time to look in the mirror and realize who has been repeatedly punished for creating chaos in the comment section, it is not me.
“However, I don’t chase Max down to argue w/ him. ”
you literally responded to me twice before I replied to you, above. Replying to me twice when I was ignoring you is the definition of chasing to argue.
And yes. I do reply to you when you flat-out lie, like you did above and anyone can see that on another website how viciously you attacked the author and other users.
And I do reply to you, at times, though again, you initiated TWICE above trying to absolve yourself of something I never even mentioned about you in my two initial posts.
But I reply to you with actual data like on the Alaska article where you made claims that just aren’t true and I used data for my points because though you clearly don’t like it, Alaska is the largest carrier of the legacies on the West Coast. That should just be a data point and move on but you take actual facts as a strange affront to your personhood. You provided no data-based reply (because you already said the other day you don’t have access to the data you claimed to use in your reply to me) but did reply in your usual way — attack another user when you don’t have data to support your own dogmatic statements. and weirdly try to “dare” me into looking up the data as though it’s my job to find the data for your flawed opinions and logic. It is not.
You ALWAYS use personal attacks me and have for years. most recently you decided to exclaim I was United management before eventually coming back to some moronic attempt to say it was all just a giant attempt to expose a management employee. That’s ignoring the weird nicknames you’ve repeatedly tried to use for whatever reason among the many personal attacks.
You are truly delusional. And it’s why you’ve been banned from so many other websites.
Opinions are fine and welcome on any site. If I have facts to back up an opinion, I’ll state them and note between opinion and fact. I’m VERY far from omniscient and I eagerly admit that.
Stating pure opinions as dogmatic fact then berating other users for saying you just have opinions… Yes. That does annoy me and you have done it EVERYWHERE you’ve ever been a poster.
You also have a documented past of using fake usernames on airliners.net and OMAAT to reply to yourself. And been specifically called out on it in writing.
Finally, This:
“Finally, you need to make it clear that discussing what happens or happened anywhere else on any other aviation site as well as personal attacks of any kind are grounds for some time in the middle of the cornfield. It is a personal affront to you for anyone to come here thinking this site is just part of some continuous internet on which they can discuss whatever happens anywhere else on the internet.”
Yes, Tim. You have a history and, as mentioned above, a VERY recent history of attacking the author of a website and other users for daring to mention international travel trends related to Trump political decisions.
When you present yourself on this site as some kind of knowledgeable person on aviation, it is worth mentioning that between us, you are the only one banned on most other aviation sites or heavily moderated.
When you have a work history pertinent to what you obsess over and also have history on the internet where independent people have deemed you chaotic, it’s worth mentioning, especially now that you try to come for me like this.
Today, I ONLY mentioned your VERY recent comments on OMAAT on specifically the topic you tried to venerate yourself on (that again, I said nothing about you in my first two comments but that you repeatedly replied to me on): That you’ve “never attacked Matthew or anyone else for posting this type of article” when you very recently have.
The article where you started that LONG diatribe was even linked on the other website today.
Did you really spend the last 45 minutes crafting a “Please don’t let MaxPower reply to me anymore” post?
This is just pure delusion. I was refraining from replying to you before you posted this deranged reply to Matthew out of respect for his comment. I’ll continue to do so now, but this reply of yours is pure self delusion.
@Matthew
You’re welcome to delete my comment in reply to Tim’s long tired about me. It doesn’t offend me (and this for that matter)
Thanks for the reply and I obviously appreciate your perspective and guidance. It does annoy me when he keeps saying the same things over and over as fact when they are often not, but I”ll just let it go.
all the best
max,
you can’t let it go. Your response proves that.
You are incapable of a civil discussion and you do attack people personally.
no, Matthew should not delete your comments. You wrote them.
you obfuscate any data point so you can argue.
and Matthew,
I am no more committed to DL than I am to any other airline. It should be clear that I am interested in the business of aviation and I focus on numbers. not cherrypicked numbers but the whole picture.
DL has led the industry in financial performance for about a decade. I have no problem w/ highlighting how well any company does – but I am just as willing to note why advantages exist – and in the case of United, why its success is coming off the backs of its employees.
btw, I have flown DL, WN and UA an equal number of times so far this year. I am a free agent and do not use anyone’s co-branded credit card any more.
I have flown more private flights this year than all of my commercial flights combined – on family-owned aircraft.
You’re insufferable
Good night
have a drink and go to bed, Max.
but before you do, search this page for the words “west coast”
If you do, you will see that you and you alone used it and you did it solely to tell me that I don’t know what I am talking about. NOT ONCE did I ever refer to west coast size.
You LOVE to argue and you desperately want to eliminate any voice that presents a perspective that you or your handler doesn’t want to hear.
You hold out being banned and moderated as some trophy and yet THERE IS NO WAY you could ever say what you say on here or other sites on the sites about which you crow about.
You are part of the paid America West descended team that has infested the internet for well over a decade.
if your airlines are really as good as you and they think they are, they wouldn’t need to spend so much energy shutting down every other voice.
“but before you do, search this page for the words “west coast””
Again. Read what I wrote for once in your life. On the Alaska article. not this one.
“You hold out being banned and moderated as some trophy and yet THERE IS NO WAY you could ever say what you say on here or other sites on the sites about which you crow about.”
And yet you complain to Matthew about how mean I am to you here and elsewhere but you’re the one banned on those places, not me. Cranky has asked, at times, for people to just ignore you in his comment sections. So I do.
“You are part of the paid America West descended team that has infested the internet for well over a decade.”
So first I work for United? Now I’m 50+ years old and a descendant of America West working at AA? Make up your mind. It’s honestly, funny, that you can’t respond to what I say so, instead, I must work for United, but now it’s America West as a means to reply. And the new paranoia from you is an entire internet infested by former America West people? lol
No offense, Matthew. But seriously? This is who you welcome to your site? This is absurd. He may not like his own past of being a jerk to many people around the internet that has resulted in his bans, but he does have a history and ignoring it only means he continues it here, which he is.
The guy complains about me chasing him around the internet while ignoring that this entire thread is here because he was trying to troll me twice and start an argument.
I don’t regret my post. It’s absurd how some can’t see data about international travel and realize there’s a cause and effect but instead attack the author when they don’t like the data. I’ve said it on other websites and I’ll say it here.
And I don’t regret responding when I did. When he says he’s never attacked authors, it is not true. And yes, Tim. Your internet history does follow you around the internet. Welcome to the internet.
I know Poland. I grew up there, admire the country, and know very well about the economic success they’ve had over the last two decades. That being said, an 18% increase in travelers from Poland doesn’t come close to offsetting a 28% decrease in travelers from Germany. While Lux and Iceland may not be material, double digit increases from places like Germany, the UK, Spain, Switzerland (and even Denmark) mean high income leisure and business travelers aren’t coming. That’s not a good statistic.
that is absolutely correct.
and that is why it is necessary to understand what is driving the differences between different countries even in western Europe.
as much as some people want to believe otherwise, the root issue is economic principles that will impact different parts of Europe differently and how each impacted country under the global tariff and trade renegotiation cycle handle and adapt to the changes that are being thrust upon them.
US stock markets are rocketing ahead today (early in the trading day) after a decent day yesterday after comments that Trump will not push out the Fed chair and also more conciliatory remarks about trade w/ China.
Airline stocks are heading – again early in the day – for very nice gains.
Trump loves to grab attention, has for years, and ultimately backs off when the cost becomes too high – including when advisors say so.
He rules by chaos but has succeeded at doing some things well. He rules in a far more chaotic style than just about any other global leader.
You don’t have to like or dislike him to be able to figure out how he or any other very public leader operates.
Tim, after seeing the mess he made in the markets and the mess he’s making with inflation/Trumpcession, the coward surrendered to China and pretends he won the battle.
this saga is hardly over but it was obvious from the beginning that the tariff and trade war would be more costly to China if it was carried through to its conclusion but that doesn’t mean that any rational person in the US was willing to suffer the cost of winning a war that many people never believe(d) was necessary.
the costs and benefits will be tallied at some point. There is enough data in the world for rational people to be able to figure out if it was worth it or not, regardless of which side tries to manipulate the narrative.
Talking about the market after the fact is too easy, even Jim Kramer gets it.
Why not show your knowledge and skills if you even have some.
What about telling us where the stocks will be tomorrow or Friday?
If I could predict markets which themselves are based on what the president says, I certainly wouldn’t be playing on the Internet.
The mere fact that people who make money trying to guess the markets can’t figure it out, explains perfectly, the chaos in which we presently live
One does not manage a mom and pop grocery store with chaos let alone the wealthiest and most powerful nation the world has ever known. You manage with pragmatic approaches to stable policies now and with an eye for the future. I believe how your beloved Bastian runs Delta? Imagine Trump running Delta? There you go.
I bet Trump believes that he knows more about airlines than most people. What could possibly go wrong?
So less people are visiting from Muslim countries like the UK and France? Great
and the bottom line of this story as of right now is that there is a greater collapse in the number of domestic passengers than there is in international passengers.
Sure, there are more domestic passengers to begin with but the collapse of domestic demand is hurting AA, AK and WN while DL and UA are preparing to reduce capacity even though they are not seeing 1st and 2nd quarter demand declines that are beyond their ability to manage.
The global airline industry had a short-lived recovery – just as most of them are
History always provides 20/20 hindsight as to the cause and magnitude but it was a given that there would be an end to the heydays that the global industry has enjoyed for a couple years.