How long must an airline wait before asking police to escort off an unruly passenger?
I appreciated the discussion yesterday on the Southwest dragging indent. While I asserted that dragging off a passenger is simply never justified, many disagreed. Most argued that there reaches a point in which there is no other viable option and that dragging off a passenger, while never preferred, is better than causing 120 people delays or missed connections.
The issue that has haunted me over the last day is identifying a better solution than forcibly removing a passenger. I argued, “There had to be another way to get her off the airplane” but did not propose a viable alternative. Someone asked, “Please tell us what that would be when an individual flat out refuses.”
And I can’t do it.
So now I can blame horrible redeye flight on Spirit Airlines, sleep deprivation, and lack of coffee before posting on why I came to a different conclusion yesterday. No, I won’t do that.
The issue before us is not how long must an airline reason with a passenger, but whether forced removal is justified when an airline concludes a passenger poses a safety risk and refuses to comply with crew member instructions.
There are some issues of overlap between the Southwest incident and Dao incident on United, but the issues are very distinct in other ways. United could have addressed the oversell issue with Dao as they do now, with progressively higher bidding to entice voluntary denied boarding. Surely once the price reached several thousands dollars there would be people willing to give up their seats.
The Southwest issue was not a problem of seat availability. It was an issue of how to best accommodate the incompatible special needs of two passengers. Southwest made the right call in removing the woman from the flight.
CONCLUSION
So I guess my bottom line is this: removing a passenger by force is never preferred, but since I cannot propose a better solution, it must be the lesser of two evils.
Did I miss anything? Anyone have a better alternative to get someone off an aircraft quickly that doesn’t involve tear gas?
Part of me still says I’d rather cancel a flight than injure a sick (deranged) woman by dragging her off a plane. But perhaps that is not the moral high ground after all…
Err… you might want to read my reply on the said article.
Bottom line: if you are in service industry, treat customer with courtesy. Calling the police, using taser, dragging, etc. evidencing you have no idea of what you are doing. You are probably better suited as a bouncer than FA.
James, the question remains — what to do when everything else fails? Cancel the flight?
Have you read what I would’ve done?
Southwest doesn’t have seat numbers, and from how the woman was acting in this situation I don’t think it’s clear that she would have stepped off the plane even if she had been treated with back-bending kindness and deference.
So the question remains: what is the airline to do when the passenger simply refuses to deplane?
I completely agree that in an ideal world good customer service would take care of all these situation (and I’m sure it does in most cases- we just don’t see it on the news). But the fact is that some people will just dig in their heels.
Rather, “Southwest doesn’t have assigned seating”
@James: I did. I just don’t think it would have worked with Dao or with this woman. I certainly would have tried it. Several times and several different ways. I think it’s a better strategy than dragging. But if it doesn’t work, then what?
@Matt
Hmmm… I’m sure it will work well. BUT on the condition it was done with sincerity, politeness, courtesy. And a subtle forcing.
Tricky….
As for Dao, different case, different treatment
I take issue with Southwest because handled the situation poorly. Lady is at fault for behavior. However, Southwest did not attempt to resolve the problem. They did not offer her an alternative flight, sit elsewhere , offer the pet pax an alternative flight or cancel flight and rebook everyone else. Per WN’s statement, WN repeatedly explain the situation and then call for law enforcement. No reasonable options were explored. Law enforcement should be used only when all reasonable options have been exhausted (after deplane).
@james, your point was that Southwest should have politely and calmly told the lady to come off plane to see a gate agent so they could change her boarding pass/reaccommodate her. This is an interesting idea even though Southwest doesn’t do assigned seats so there is of course nothing the gate agent could have done. Your idea seems to be lie through your teeth to get passenger off plane and then shut the door.
From an optics point of view it’s a great idea. Once she is off plane, passenger trying to storm the plane via assaulting staff/cops makes her look bad/insane. Not sure ethically it’s much of an improvement due to the lying but it is a better option than resorting to force.
I’m torn here, if passenger is smart and doesn’t get up what would you have done? Cancelled flight?
@Dan
Not exactly send her to see gate agents. No way. Nobody would do that.
Approach the passenger, look care for her problem (you should as it would impact the damn schedule). Said, “I might have solution for your problem”. Go with her to the gate (you need to accompany, otherwise you just playing authority card) and take her bag with you (I don’t mean you’re her slave carrying her bag – but you need to implicitly force her to follow you). Once at the gate, well…. I leave the imagination to you.
I would try to solve the problem and try to get her onboard tough. But if that is not possible, at least I tried. And I didn’t lie.
The key is YOU ARE NOT INSTRUCTING but YOU ARE PERSUADING almost as if you are BEGGING but actually FORCING (by taking her bag).
If the passenger is smart, you just have to be smarter.
My answer to your question Matt. Is public shaming… That’s pretty effective..
I would announce that due to a passenger refusing to exit the plane. We request that all passengers disembark the plane, we will not reboard until everyone is off the plane. Then that unruly passenger would be banned from flying that airline again. Potentially be put on a no fly list for 1 year with other airlines. Do the walk of shame as everyone looks at her since they missed their connection.
I have no time for inconsiderate passengers. If she had a life threatening condition, she should be carrying my medical condition papers tattooed to her body. That is better than being beat up and forcibly removed from the plane.
Well, that’s a nice alternative. But I would prefer being smarter than outright bullying.
Then again, that’s my subjective point of view….
Be a manipulative service minded training. Your solution of being service oriented is best case scenario but are you going to build a procedure around a culture like big 3 legacy’s that don’t exist right now?
My solution is not about bullying. It is about using social pressure to do the right thing for the group. The lady who was dragged off chose not to get off the plane on her own. She wanted another passenger with dog to be kicked off rather than herself exiting the plane. I feel it was the right thing to do in the end.
Your approach seems applicable. I want to bully but afraid to be viewed as conducting bullying. Let’s all bully her together. Therefore, according to democracy (majority rules) I’m not a bully. Psychological mass effect.
That’s just an example. Be creative in making reason for the pax to get out of the plane. Convey it to the pax with intention to help and solve the problem instead of imposing your authority. You don’t approach an agitated person with authority for an amicable settlement. Its basic psychological trick.
@James
Care to enlighten us to your real life examples of your approach working in a confined environment.
@hutb
If you were diligent enough to read the lines you would’ve guess my line of work
@James
I love your perfect world scenario. You show concern for the PAX so they are willing to follow you and everyone lives happily ever after. Here in the real world though it doesn’t work that way. If someone doesn’t want to get off the plane you aren’t going to make them without force. The problem is that you expect people to be reasonable. However, in this situation do you think that this woman was reasonable? If you look at this situation I think there are really two possibilities for what happened to this woman. 1) She was telling the truth and had a life threatening allergy to dogs yet still wanted to stay on the plane risking her own life. 2) She made it up because she didn’t want to fly on the same flight as a dog or has milder allergies that would be bothersome for her. Then when she realized she would have to be the one to leave she got pissed. Honestly, do you think either of those situations has a reasonable person who will cooperate and get off that plane?
@tyler
The way I see it, the woman DEMANDS something with her allergic situation and animal(s) on board. I honestly first try to find remedy like if I can find someone willing to switch seat so she would be far from the animal(s). Meanwhile I’m planning a backup if worst comes to worst, the boss said she need to deplane. Would I tell that straight to her face? I’m not that stupid. That’s the reason I subtly try to make her follow me outside.
And its not perfect, tough it seems so. In order to pull it off you need a mentality of “service industry”. ANA, JAL, Garuda, or the likes may be able to easily show the level of sincerity and helpfull to get her to follow you.
I’m sure you catch my drift…..
@James
I agree that she does demand something with her allergic situation. However, how far away is safe? Do you think that a flight attendant is qualified to make that call? So in that situation Southwest has a policy that they don’t fly. To me it seems very reasonable. Do you honestly think a “service industry” attitude will help someone who is unreasonable. The fact is sometimes things have to be done and it is because people think that everyone will cater to them. This should be as simple as “ma’am it is our policy that someone with life threatening allergies is unable to fly with animals on board. Since you are unable to provide medical documentation then we will have to rebook you on another flight.” However, since people are not reasonable we deal with this. Also, why fight with the cops? That is another sign of an unreasonable person who thinks they are entitled. Do you actually think you are going to win? Yeah but I’m sure if they would have “tricked” her and been real sweet she would have done anything they asked.
@tyler
However, how far away is safe? I don’t know, that’s a reason to ask for her cooperation while subtly take her off the plane.
A flight attendant is qualified to make that call? Its not a medical situation since no evidence she has a medical condition. FA tries to settle situation with a rowdy pax.
Do you honestly think a “service industry” attitude will help someone who is unreasonable? Yes. She has DEMANDS, I’m going to help you to get your DEMANDS. anyone else antagonize you, only I are willing to help. You have no choice to cooperate with me. Psychological trick
Bla..bla..bla…
Matt thinks it is not proper to bring police to drag her out, but cannot provide alternative solution. I provide the alternative solution. Please don’t assume beyond what I’ve clearly stated.
Also, why fight with the cops? In her point of view, she is right, and defending her right(s). Tough she may not win but at least she’ trying or maybe she’s aiming a subsequent lawsuit or other agenda.
Why was the service dog and the accompanying passenger not removed?
Do passengers with service animals take priority over passengers with allergies?
I am not arguing against the need for service animals, but as I see it what makes the person with allergies a lesser important person than a person needing a service animal in the cabin?
@Stacy
I think you’ll find there would a legal requirement for the airline to carry the service dogs.
@Stacy
I am not sure the exact priority for who would be removed in the situation. However, the women did not have any documentation for her allergies. If she had I still tend to think that the dog would fly first and the passenger with the allergies would be put on the next flight. That last part is speculation on my part though.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/05/family-kicked-off-jetblue-flight-over-birthday-cake/
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/United-Flight-Makes-Unscheduled-Stop-at-SFO-Due-Unruly-Passenger-423551703.html
I think it will be more common to deplane the entire flight when one person won’t come off, as happened in both of the above links. Either don’t allow the passenger in question to reboard or call someone to escort the passenger off if he still won’t deplane, even if he is the only one on the plane (except for the crew).
It takes longer and can add significant time to the delay, but it avoids bad PR of video showing someone dragged off the plane.
I couldn’t find a single medical professional that would diagnose a life threatening condition and not write emergency scripts, file with a national pharmacy, provide a legal document to demonstrate need and advise for instructions, provide answering service info. to field questions and instruct patient to carry their own supply of life saving drugs.
How about those human who carried pet onboard but claimed it as esa?
So can I take credit for changing your mind? 🙂
You can!
You may have gotten wrong because it’s a difficult issue. Airlines get it wrong too.
All of us have the benefit of applying 20/20 hindsight to these issues and it’s still can be challenging. Southwest may have been mostly right here; but that doesn’t mean that United wasn’t mostly wrong with Dr. Dao.
Neither issue is an issue of “denied boarding.” The reason is obvious. Both had already boarded. You can’t deny boarding to someone who has already boarded. To remove either, the airline has to apply a different, more stringent criteria of whether there is sufficient justification for removing them from the plane.
In Dr. Dao’s case, there simply wasn’t anything in United’s procedures that allowed the removal. They tried to come up with after-the-fact BS that it was lawful to remove him because he failed to follow the orders of the flight crew. It’s BS because the order he failed to follow was to leave the plane. That’s completely circular reasoning. Nor is it OK that United had a procedure prioritizing certain crew over passengers in oversold situations. It was an oversale and that applies to denied boardings.
In this case, the reason for removal was that she stated she had a life-threatening allergy. That may have been a stretch of the truth. She may have thought it was complete BS that people are abusing the “emotional support” animal. She may have thought that Southwest had an obligation to accommodate her, rather than the folks with pets. None of that matters all that much. Her statement that she had a life-threatening allergy was enough.
The rest of the discussion is whether it could have been better handled. Maybe it could have. Maybe not.
Lol. So you were saying Matt himself cannot pinpoint the issue at hand? Furthermore you elaborate that both cases are different and therefore different approach shall apply, which Matt seems to be consider at most same standard procedure would suffice?
Bravo!!! Nice logic and attention to details.
I’m being sincere and its not sarcasm.
I think you have it right this time. There are going to be times when people just won’t comply. That being said I think part of the solution when you reach the point of calling law enforcement is to take everyone off the plane immediately. I would have them leave their bags etc as the aircraft will be secure. Then when the police arrive you don’t have to worry as much about the event becoming a public spectacle and to a degree I think it helps to defuse the situation.
Bravo for being willing to admit you got it wrong. Far too many won’t.
I wonder how such behavior by a passenger would play out on NK? Based on Matthew’s experience with the party crowd, fellow passengers might have taken care of the situation themselves.
Three words: Medic Alert Tag. Apparently absent in this case. Five more words: EpiPen Could Have Killed Her. That’s what she was asking for, right? She didn’t have one (there’s a clue). Four More Words: Allergic Reaction Not Apparent. Gives one pause. See “Five more words”, above
Wow! Interesting approach. I subjectively viewed someone is bad, she can die. Now, let me think a reason to justify my views and also to look smart among people.
Interesting indeed…..
Her comment about a deadly allergy had to be taken seriously. She basically said she might die on the flight. Just as a comment using the B word, has to be taken seriously. Flight attendants are not qualified to determine who is joking, lying etc.
Removing all passengers in order to get her off is not a feasable solution either. There might be wheel chaired passengers, unaccompanied minors, fearful flyers etc. That would cause such a disruption, cost, and domino delays. Everyone would be inconvenienced because of one person.
She should have done the mature and considerate thing, and get off the plane. She could have died from the allergy while just sitting there arguing. Safety is always first.