A leaked communication to United pilots, purportedly from a union official, warns them that flying in the cockpit of another carrier is a privilege and advises them to be a “polite doormat” and to “keep your damn mouth shut” when jumpseating on Southwest Airlines or other carriers.
United Airlines Pilots Advised To Be A “Polite Doormat” When Jumpseating
Earlier this week, I wrote about what happened on a recent Southwest Airlines flight from San Francisco to San Diego. As first reported, a new hire United pilot noted a safety concern, then phoned the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to file an incident report. That incensed the union representing Southwest pilots and purportedly has led to instances of United pilots being denied a jumpseat when flying on Southwest.
New details have emerged suggesting this issue is escalating, even though it was not the United pilot who even made the FAA complaint:
- There is reason to believe that the pilot shared the safety concern with her partner and it was the partner who called the FAA to report the incident
- Loose lips sink ships…
- As a result of this incident, there do appear to be several instances of Southwest Airlines pilots refusing to allow United pilots to fly in their jump seats
- Now the union representing United pilots has warned its pilots not to file FAA reports when jumpseating on another carrier
Aviation insider JonNYC shares an internal message purportedly from an official of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) concerning the issue:
A newer hire at United jumpseated on SWA recently from SFO-SAN and after the flight was over, decided she would notify the FAA on the inadequacies of the crew whose jumpseat they graciously offered.
Not going to name names but for gods sake, please mentor our newer hires on how to Jumpseat properly and keep your damn mouth shut. At the very least, if you see something incorrect or wrong, very politely query the crew, if you feel you must, and let them explain themselves, if they choose to.
If they choose not to and you are not satisfied, please contact our Jumpseat Committee and let them handle it. Running to the FAA and skipping Rob’s Committee is not the way to do this and I’d think that common sense will prevail but here we are.
Personally I don’t say jack while I’m riding and am basically a very polite doormat. I’ve got to say I’m not surprised by this as some of our newer folks just seem to not get it at times and I’m not really sure how we can prevent this from happening in the future.
Rightly or wrongly, some of the SWA guys and gals are starting to turn down our Pilots as this story winds it [sic] way around their seniority list. Please share your thoughts on this with the people you fly with and remind them that Jumpseating is a privilege and not a right. Many of our pilots depend on a ride from SWA and to be turned down because of someone else’s foolishness is unforgivable.
https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1788345605011460562
It’s a surprisingly candid note and while that may not technically represent the position of the union, it runs contrary to the idea that a jumpseat pilot is a third set of eyes that becomes responsible for ensuring the safety of the aircraft.
You would think that a flight crew would advise a jumpseater to speak up if something did not look right. But if the jumpseater felt there was a serious safety issue that was not properly resolved, the correct path would be to speak to the captain or to her union (in that order).
CONCLUSION
My own hunch is that this will calm down in the weeks ahead and United pilots will once again be welcome in Southwest cockpits, but now with the understanding that “what happens here, stays here.” I think that is fair enough and I am confident that we don’t need an FAA investigation every time a jumpseat pilot believes a concern should have been addressed differently.
That ALPA communication is EXACTLY what you do while jumpseating, it’s a privilege. If you see anything seriously safety related not being noticed or addressed you politely bring it up….. but the jumpseater in this instance didn’t stop there did she? There lies the problem.
But here’s the other side of the issue that non pilots don’t understand , IF anything was a serious flight safety issue it would be automatically captured by the FOQA system regardless of anyone reporting it. If the FOQA data is serious enough and no corresponding ASAP report from the crew is received with satisfactory explanation the phone calls will go out to the crew for an explanation of the event. For serious events the airline’s POI (FAA Inspector assigned to that airline) is involved in the process. In some cases the crew will be brought in for retraining. Other times if it’s an event that is being seen more than a few times or perhaps a certain approach to a particular airport causing multiple crew’s difficulties it will be incorporated into the recurrent training the next year and perhaps an Operational Bulletin will be issued highlighting the issue. That is the system…..knowing that yes as a jumpseater there would never be any reason going beyond politely pointing something out that might be trending in the wrong direction!!!
However I noticed this is now also making the rounds to the general public on social media. The flying public is looking at this in a completely different light. Many are voicing legitimate concerns that the “old boy network” of pilots is thereby compromising safety. I can see their point. The reality is this does not look good for the perception of pilots by passengers in coming across as protective to each other even if it sacrifices safety. Note, I said perception. Whether it’s reality is left for pilots to decide in good conscience. But we saw how at Boeing the old boys network there has compromised safety and cost the lives of many. It usually does not bode well over time.
The pilots are professionals , and they don’t need ‘backseat drivers’ .
“The pilots are professionals , and they don’t need ‘backseat drivers” .True Professionals are not punitive when mistakes or shortcomings are identified. Professionals look for opportunities to improve . THIS action by the union and by Southwest pilots is the epitome of unprofessional and your comment captures that Mentality succinctly. Professionals expect other professionals to speak up. You Seem to think That Professional is like a magic cloak of immunity that Cops wear. Pilots pissed at other pilots for snitching is clearly NOT professional. IT may Be SOP but it is not professional.
Harold, your ignorance about the airlines and policies with themselves in the FAA is a parent in your response. Don’t you think the world is tired of emotional outbursts from people that don’t have a full understanding on the subject swish with which they like to comment on? I know I am.
What United jumper did is unprofessional by the very definition. She skipped every established policy and procedure and went directly to the end of the chain. That itself causes a safety concern. If an operating crew thinks they’re gonna have an unprofessional tattletale Jumpseat. This is the reason why you’ll see some Jumpseat denied the privilege.. again, you have to have knowledge about the industry with which you comment on otherwise it’s just uninformed misinformation.
I talked about perception. And the average flyer reads this and given what’s happening at Boeing is frightened to imagine pilots protecting each other within a “code.”Simple as that. Boeing engineers were thought to be professional. As such oversight waned. How did that work out?
“The pilots are professionals , and they don’t need ‘backseat drivers’”
In this case, both pilots were distracted while they were slowing down. FO was flying, and captain didn’t monitor adequately what the FO was doing.
They had not applied flaps and only realized what’s going on because the jumpseater alerted them (twice in fact, they missed it the first time). Apparently they were 20-30 knots below the maneuvering “flaps up” maneuvering speed, with no flaps.
In this case they were lucky to have “backseat driver” who actually said anything.
Now the big question is why did SWA pilots react to this whole thing so emotionally and retaliated against her for speaking up?
Just like cops are professionals and don’t need civilians filming them? Yeah right. When my life is on the line, I don’t want some don’t ask, don’t tell policy to interfere with my safety.
Stewart – you’re ignorant on the policies and procedures with airlines and the FAA. There are so many checks and balances for this exact scenario. The fact that this inexperienced United jumpseater skipped all established policies and procedures shows she is also ignorant about the industry. That’s unprofessional. To skip all the other steps and go straight to the end of the chain shows ignorance at best but more than likely cowardice or worse.
I completely understand the union’s position, but they need a better narrative than “Don’t report safety issues”, especially given the recent spate of emergency issues United has had.
The female jump seating pilot was may have been ‘backseat driving’ , like Ethel Merman telling Milton Berle how to drive in the movie Mad Mad Mad World ( 1963 ) .
If one was an ex-Marine pilot , what would he have told the female ‘backseat driver’ ?
“Thank you, ma’am, for helping us maintain our best safety standards.” If anyone thinks being a Marine or anything else gives you a license to be misogynistic then get into the 21st Century.I didn’t serve my country to see anyone become “less than.”
I agree 100% with this communication. I have countless hours in the jump seat, There are three times to say something.
1. The aircraft is in the state of immanent danger
2. A checklist item is called but somehow missed and is detriment to the safety of flight.
3. The aircraft is being placed in a position it is not supposed to be (ex: runway incursion)
ALL other times you do not say SQUAT and in all instances.. you do not notify the feds. You talk to the crew from one professional to the other.
@SMR ,,, +1 . Well said . Thank you for your professionalism .
Well said.
Well said? meaning #1 is the correct answer?
As an air traffic controller sitting i n the jump seat I was able to prevent a runway incursion when the crew was gonna line up and wait (TIPH at That time) on a runway and did not have permission to do so. I spoke up then but that was the only time and I never said anything more about it. Captain thanked me.
@Ben.. they did not say do not report safety issues. They said do not go straight to the Feds. I know the general public does not believe this but small issues like this are VERY well handled by union Professional standards. If a pilot has recurring Pro-standards issues…the Union may decide to work with management or provide pilots with additional training.
more proof that UNIONS are one of the things wrong with this country
Remember Derek. Unions are groups of people trying to make their work lives liveable. If Companies treat their employees fairly theres no need for Union. Delta FA’s are proof
Are you that dense? This has nothing to do with the union, who are actually the ones working with their fellow union to assure this doesn’t result in a major problem between the UA and WN pilots. This has to do with the pilot’s idiot partner or friend going to the FAA to report what was ultimately a non-issue that the jumpseater correctly handled on the flight deck.
I tend to agree that the jumpseat pilot should have queried the pilots rather than call the FAA. Each airline has slightly different protocols for flying the same basic aircraft. One airline doesn’t have a “descent checklist” as does another airline. That doesn’t mean that the airline that doesn’t have a formal descent checklist is doing anything wrong. The pilots accomplish the same routine in a different manor. Going contrary to the aircraft manufacturer’s checklists requires FAA CMU POI approval. We have a practice that most captains will use when a jumpseat rider from our company or OAL is aboard. “I run an “open cockpit”. If you see something that concerns you, please speak up.” I had a new hire tell me that I’m “doing it all wrong”. He had never flown this aircraft so I called his attention to the POM & FOM and explained. He still complained. “You know, I was a captain at XXX regional carrier before coming here.” “Well, that’s great for you but you are not a captain nor an instructor now.” He went to the fleet captain to complain. When that answer didn’t satisfy him, he went to the chief pilot. A review board was convened and ALPA agreed…he was terminated after that. Explain that on your next airline interview!
I’ve been on several flights on SWA & noticed a pilot or pilots boarding & sitting in coach, never the flight deck Pilot or no pilot even one of your own should not be allowed unless the pilot calls.As most jobs there is a proper way to do things & I’m pretty sure it wasn’t perhaps that they were hiding something but the way it went about it.If there’s room for dead heading pilots, it should be in the sections with other passengers.This has been a common courtesy for airline employees & as of a result from this may stop & would be a shame for those that depend on these rides.
“Jumpseaters” are always accommodated in the cabin first and will only occupy the physical jumpseat (with the Captain’s permission) only if there is no room in back. “Deadheaders” are ALWAYS are in the passenger cabin and should never occupy the physical jumpseat. Clear as mud? Lol
Carolyn, pilots will take a seat in the cabin if there is one available. If there are none, and the flight deck jumpseat is open, an eligible pilot from an airline with a reciprocal jumpeat agreement may occupy that jumpseat at the Captain’s discretion. This privilege is not extended to (most) other airline employees, including flight attendants.
If a flight is full, pilots will take one of the jumpseats. On WN, there are always 2 jumpseats and they often both get occupied with commuters on full flights.
Jumpseating is a privilege, for sure. Suggesting that a licensed commercial pilot “exercise restraint” on highlighting potential safety issues is ridiculous. Especially with the absence-of-safety culture that Boeing has graciously thrust us all into, any safety issue should be highlighted through any channel. We’re not talking about a dinner party where you need to be polite to a host, we’re talking about the cockpit of a commercial airliner. “You’re invited into the cockpit but please shut your trap” is an untenable position.
As an ATC years ago I sincerely appreciated the program allowing controllers to jumpsuit on air carriers. I always respectful and silent while on the flight deck. On my first jumpsuit flight I was on a TWA B727 BNA-OKC. We were at FL310 and CAVU. I noted that the Captain was proped back reading a Zane Gey paperback novel. The FO was leaned over planning his next week’s vacation trip. The Flight Engineer was deep into log book entries. I was aware that controllers did screwup and was concerned that even with us in APC (Class A) that someone should be looking out the window (pre TCAS). I kept scanning the sky nervously. Funny now.
Do pilots have any formal regulatory requirements to report dangerous situations or breaking of procedure, rules?
(Asking if this is the case, not whether they bother to or face actual discipline for not doing so. Many professions are supposed to speak up but the culture is all about closing ranks.) Wondering if the UA pilot was new enough to believe that following the rules (reporting) was how things work since this involves public safety.
They do not have a formal requirement to report something like this. Reports to the FAA are never required. Reports to the NTSB are required in very limited circumstances, and are generally limited to PIC and maybe SIC, which a jumpseater is not.
Did Gary Leff take over this blog today, cause the ridiculously misplaced anti labor BS is pretty thick here. This was not, in any way, an official union communication. In fact, he official communication from ALPA was very different. The reality is that the jumpseater was a victim of having an idiot partner that they trusted with information about something that might have been a maintenance issue, but was not going to endanger safety of flight. She did exactly what would be expected of a jumpseater and got bitten later. The problem is that a few WN pilots decided to then blame her and other UA pilots and get petty about it, and it caused an issue that had to get ironed out between UA’s ALPA MEC and SWAPA.
The amount of cockiness that is exhumed by this article and the comments combined explains most of the safety problems the industry has been experiencing. Perhaps we now really understand where the word cockpit comes from. If one makes a mistake, and someone tries to correct it, as annoying as it may be, it is categorically a good thing. If there was no mistake, and it was just an impolite gesture, and next time FAA will remember the reporter. The real harm is done when the community tries to suppress any critic because their ego is hurt.
This will be even more critical as more DEI hires start flying the Boeings being built by other Diversity Quota Specialists. Nobody should feel the freedom to speak out about unsafe conditions or practices when the feelings of incompetent but quota-filling union mouthbreathers are in play. This won’t be an issue until a whole plane full of gender fluid, racially ambiguous, pro-Palestinian protester low functioning liberal social activists dies due to an overlooked safety procedure. Damn right the union tells them to STFU, losing access to jumpseats would prevent actual competent pilots sitting in Southwest cockpits, if only to enjoy the ride. Let’s start a pool to wager on when the death toll from this memo crosses 100 bodies. I’ll take 200 days and 3 crashes.
There’s always one that has to ruin it for the rest of us that simply are endeavoring to commute to work/home.
Perhaps a little too keen to add her “2 cents worth” but nevertheless, a very immature act on her behalf. I hope her Union reps counsel her on the protocol of jumpseating and ensure she becomes aware that this is a privilege that can be taken away by the FAA within seconds.
If it isn’t safety related, keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself, Nobody asked you.
If it is safety related, firstly speak to the Captain, then the Professional Standards reps of your Union and follow their guidance.
Pilots have proper channels to escalate safety concerns via their unions and pro standards groups.
But how about the general public? We don’t have such luxury, and using the FAA Hotline is the correct avenue for non-employees.
In this case the “friend” probably went to the FAA, because that’s the ONLY avenue for general public to raise concerns.
Is this correct?
Why are the mods deleting posts that contain actual facts?
We don’t delete anything.
Wow playing game of whack-a-mole here
The Title doesn’t accurately reflect the content—SHOCKER!
The United union official described his own behavior as “act like a polite door mat.” At no point did the union official tell other pilots to act like a door mat.
The title is a DIRECT QUOTE.
SHOCKER you can’t read.