The Association of Flight Attendants (AFA), the powerful union representing flight attendants at United Airlines, is not pleased with new CEO Scott Kirby…and it’s only his first full week on the job. But the AFA is also afraid that with a new chief in town, it may lose its grip on power.
Let me draw you attention to a letter titled, We Have a Contract, that the AFA sent to employees after Kirby talked about his goal to “variabilize” labor cost structure. You can read the full letter here.
As I detailed earlier today, Kirby has expressed hope that through voluntary cuts in hours, most furloughs can be avoided on October 1st. The premise is simple: if employees agree to voluntary wage and/or hour reductions, more employees will remain on the payroll. This will position United to bounce back quickly once demand recovers, ultimately benefiting employees.
But the AFA isn’t amused by the plan. It told flight attendants:
“Instead we believe his message was intended to appeal to individual employees and persuade Flight Attendants to accept less than that for which we have bargained. Right now, we need to speak with one voice and enforce our Contract. Scott must come to understand that, for each of us, ‘My Union speaks for me.'”
The AFA is afraid is that Kirby may bypass it and appeal directly to employees, pulling at their heartstrings to make concessions that will weaken collective bargaining strength. Charitably, the AFA fears that flight attendants will make a bad deal for themselves if they do not let AFA speak on their behalf.
Kirby has promised far more frequent interactions with employees than his predecessor, even hinting that these may be self-recorded iPhone conversations rather than carefully-edited creations.
The AFA continues:
“As we continue to navigate through some of the most difficult times in our airline’s history, we hear you loud and clear. No concessions. To accomplish this, we must all recognize that our strength comes from our collective. No bargaining with any one Flight Attendant. We must speak with one voice because, regardless of your seniority, your base or your status as a lineholder or Reserve, this fight is about your future.”
Again, the fear is palpable. But this negotiating stance is simply absurd. No concessions? No concessions when capacity is down 80-90% and planes are still less than half full?
Is the AFA Hoodwinking Junior Members? Will They Deal Directly With Scott Kirby?
I fear the AFA offers false hope to its more junior members, when it argues:
“Together, all of us, speaking with one voice through our elected AFA representatives will make it through this storm and come out on the other side with our hard-fought, contractually protected full-time jobs that are not only careers that support families for so many but also a profession of which all of us can be proud to be associated in the future.”
Will the AFA refuse to compromise, protecting the “hard-fought, contractually protected full-time jobs” of more senior flight attendants at the expense of junior flight attendants? That’s the way airline unions traditionally work (look no further than the anger between junior and senior flight attendants at American Airlines).
Put another way, if the AFA refuses to compromise in a meaningful way, there will be job cuts. And since this is not British Airways, those job cuts will go to the most junior flight attendants. No wonder the AFA is afraid that Kirby will cut a deal directly with flight attendants.
If junior flight attendants find they are being used as a pawn to save more senior flight attendants, will they still let AFA speak for them?
CONCLUSION
I realize I include a fair amount of conjecture in this post. But the past is often a good indicator of the future and junior union members are often burned to save more senior members. Now United flight attendants, especially junior ones, will need to decide whether to trust the AFA or be open to more flexible arrangements which may better preserve their jobs.
image: United Airlines
This is survival of the smartest and fittest …
Most union contracts state that layoffs are done by seniority
I have 25 years at United … I have taken pay cuts, had my pension taken from me .. had my benefits slashed, went 10 years without a raise when United was making money hand over fist, been laid off twice …
And you want me to take one for the team ??
Ha ! Not in hell will we do this …
I’m sorry that there will be layoffs … but it’s utterly ridiculous to ask the senior people who have sacrificed an arm and a leg in the past for some who haven’t done a thing at all !!!!
Everyone who signed up to work for a union understood what they were doing …
Can I be laid off in October ??? Certainly I can … I don’t think anyone is safe …
Some need to learn the pain as harsh as that sounds !
Lay-off by seniority plain and simple
That’s fair enough. But don’t you think the AFA should tell junior flight attendants to take the voluntary separation packages?
It’s a personal choice when it comes to that.
A recommendation is just that …”to suggest”
You would be surprised at the amount of misinformation on both sides and I will concede the brain washing also.
Many believe that the company (United) owes them a “buyout” and that is not very realistic in today’s situation. And that’s where heads butt against each other.
Give me $50k or $100k and I’ll leave is what I hear on a daily basis … I laugh at them because that is not logical.
Offering 100,000 miles to employees is laughable since it doesn’t cost the company anything; As shown on this site that’s 1 way to London from Chicago in business and that’s it.
Offering extended health care Not just 2 or 3 months and or a payout on sick time or injury time that have been earned over the years – would get the amount of employees to leave as United wants.
I’m not irrational of the current situation. I understand that the company wants to survive …. but bill leave you with this …
Do you really believe my $60,000 a year breaks United Airlines ??? Not one bit …. But how about the 2,800 Vice-Presidents at Willis tower that make $350,000 to $3,5 million a year make .. break the company ?
Not to incite a riot (enough of those these days) but, honestly, don’t you think the focus should be on pilots? There are plenty now and the shortage is clearly no more. And given your numbers and the fact that senior pilots are close to retirement anyway and have been nicely bringing in, sometimes, over $250K a year, it seems like the first place to start pushing and offering packages.
One senior pilot two years away from retirement and making $250K is the value of a multitude of F/A’s. It’s all about supply…f/a’s are usually the most expendable as there are plenty of new hires that will take the job as things ramp back in time. But if you can keep more first line employees who might offer a better customer product it’s a position of strength going forward for the brand. That is, of course, if senior FA’s start really appreciating and loving their jobs (not often the case).
Pilots WERE more difficult to find. Until now. For the coming years there is going to be a massive glut not seen since the 80’s-90’s. There is no reason to be concerned as there are plenty of furloughed regional jet pilots with ample hours and experience to step in for a fraction of the cost. Start with the pilots, one senior pilot=five front line employees. Move out all those that are 2-5 years from retirement. Offer them good packages and move on. It’s all in how you sell it.
To AngryUnitedEmployee, remember that you are not in it for the money. You are there primarily for our safety.
That is very noble because we passengers, as your colleagues have said, are the enemy.
AngryUnitedEmployee This is the reason United has such a horrible reputation. Entitled and selfish senior flight attendants who think the world revolves around them. My wife is a United Flight attendant with 5 years senority, she will likely be furloughed or layed off in October because you are unwilling to take a reduction in hours for a few months. This isn’t Corporate trying to screw us over, its a pandemic. If we all gave a little we might make it though this thing. “We are all in this together” ya right!
Everyone, this is a blog, a blog from someone who does not do what we do, has not worked in our ranks, let alone understand or know the system we agreed to, and hired on to. Every aspect of our jobs, and most other employees are based on seniority and union contracts were they exist. We know who we are, as well as what we were told, and what we agreed to at the time of our employment. Take his comments and hypotheticals with a grain of salt, he has no real knowledge or understanding of ‘our’ structure
Ann, I’ve been covering United for over a decade. I have a very good idea of what is going on. Thanks.
@HappyGuy
You have lost your mind to think I an employee who has taken a beating from United for 25 years; should take one for the team and take a pay cut to save your wife !!!
Your wife hasn’t done anything at United .. that would warrant me to feel sorry for her .. and or want to sacrifice anything for someone who hasn’t earned her time with sacrifices of her own !
Dear Mr. Klint,
That’s like saying I’m married to a black woman and I know what it’s like to be black. Being in the ranks doing the work is the only way you could understand.
@AngryTulipEmployee — yep, typical United crabby attitude- think of only yourself first. Since you seem to just love the company so much why don’t you go elsewhere!
He can do it suddenly like BA does
You better dont be so selfish as that might haunt you back!!!!!
Dear Derek,
As 46 yr flight attendant, my customer pays my salary, not United. He/she is most certainly is not my enemy. The concept British Airways has of cutting their seasoned workers is in my opinion is a big mistake. We are the career workers who were trained to actually CARE about you. We don’t chew gum or play with our phones. We know wine, and destinations and a few rock stars. Yes, 100,000, I would go. But when I and my colleagues at UAL and BA are gone, (and the pilots they fed who are now going to be in a really bad mood) I expect the safety, dignity, caring, knowledge, respect, attention to detail and going the extra mile in every cabin which I asked from my crews and myself will fade. And you will get the what the airline pays for. Cheap labor. In an emergency that’s risky. In time, you will all wish you had us back. The flight attendants who knew what they were doing. But like the dinosaurs we are often called we will become extinct. And you will be SOL as they say and miserable.
In an emergency….I dont need someone who hates me to yell at me to keep my head down, stay down or to jump onto the slide and run away from the aircraft. Customer service on board is nonexistant and many f/a’s only instigate or agitate problems. Not saying they’re all bad but a lot of them are. F/As and their cavalier and uncaring attitudes while proudly wearing their afa pin have long chosen their union over customers and love of the job. You want to fight management and customers?okay great now here’s your fight. Airlines needs to be exactly half of what they were 5 months ago. Theres no getting around that. We passengers ( the enemies) have dealt with the surly, cruel and tyrannical behavior of f/as for years. Its all coming full circle. The only airlines (and their employees) who will survive this are the ones who people want to spend money with and feel that their business is genuinely appreciated. I haven’t stepped foot on a United aircraft in 12 years because of its employees both on the ground and in the air. If it takes me 3 flights on Delta or AA to get to the same place one flight on United does…..Delta or AA it is.
Everyone, this is a blog, a blog from someone who does not do what we do, has not worked in our ranks, let alone understand or know the system we agreed to, and hired on to. Every aspect of our jobs, and most other employees are based on seniority and union contracts were they exist. We know who we are, as well as what we were told, and what we agreed to at the time of our employment. Take his comments and hypotheticals with a grain of salt, he has no real knowledge or understanding of ‘our’ structure
Matthew Klint
Covering information on an Airline like United or any other does not make you an expert. Living the industry for 40 years does. Constant change of management, pay cuts, furloughs, bankruptcy with a foreign carrier where rules did not matter although we were unionized will change your mind. If you know about airlines you should know, that concessions given to the company you never get back. For CHRIS where your comment that you don’t need someone yelling at you heads down and getting you off an aircraft alive. Good for you but the rest of those passengers on your flight do. If not look at what they call miracles like on the Hudson River and many accidents where FLIGHT ATTENDANTS have saved lives. We are not just there to give you your drink or meal. Hope you never get sick or have a heart attack on board because we will be the ones saving your life. Again a lot of passengers in the world are grateful we are not there to just serve coke. And on my 40 years passengers have never been my enemies. In fact I always enjoys talking with them. I will tell you nowadays the self entitlement people have taken not just in travel but in life in general where everything is ME ME ME AND IT’s all about me makes traveling very hard. People when they get on think my overhead, my crew, my airline. Guess what that is not the way it works. People are forgetting They are paying for transportation from point A to point B. Read your ticket people don’t anymore. I am sorry but people have to learn how to travel and we do have many many many who don’t know. But always remember that the way you treat people you will be treated. Buying a cheap ticket does not entitle you to treat another human being wrong ( i don’t care who it is Flight Attendant or whoever ). And we are seeing it nowadays with abusive behavior by certain police on black people ( and btw I am white) and yet again one bad apple does not make all men in blue bad. I have a lot of respect for them for what they do. I could go on and on CHRIS but people just have to understand things only affect you when you are in the pot. From outside you can’t see the big picture and that goes for you Matthew. You don’t know what going into bankruptcy until you do. Or pay cuts or a 20 hrs duty day with delays to get you home or the way they keep reducing staffing to save money while increasing the workload. Which keeps happening. I am an Ex Continental Airlines flight attendant and we had Gordon Bethune who turned us around. He is a loved man with CO employees because he never forgot who we were and treated us correctly. Him like Sir Richard Branson in Virgin and a few others CEO’s have always said it “ My customers are not first, my employees are. If I have happy employees I will have Happy Customers” and he did. We all loved to work for him. Very happy years under his direction. Everyday we are sorry he left. And that is the total truth. So believe I am only one of many flight attendants that has been thru a lot and I am almost on my way out. Happy Guy. I am sorry about your wife situation but really until you have put 40 years into a profession and in the case of United flight attendants and pilots and your retirement has been taken away you would not understand. Not because you can’t but because you don’t want to. I am still one of the lucky ones because my Continental retirement is still safe for the moment. Understand one thing your wife can still find another job and being junior is just a bad part of this situation we all were in the same position and had to go thru a lot too. If you are upset about her being furloughed how do you think people with 40 years feel about losing their pension their job being back on reserve making less than half and losing their livelihood. One last time when you Matthew, Chris, and Happy Guy because I stopped reading, just too many have lived thru all that in a 40 years span, then maybe just maybe you will get the big picture. Until then you are entitled to what most of us going thru this feel is totally unfounded. Matthew again 10 years from the outside will never equal 40 on the inside. Sorry but that is just the way it is
No he can’t.
Max…you are spot on! Well said
No, I don’t think AFA should ‘tell’ any of its members to leave their job permanently. Each person must weigh the pros and cons for themselves of course.
The voluntary separation package just came out 2 days ago and you think AFA should tell junior people to just walk away?!
Perhaps you’re not aware that the contract between AFA and UA provides for unlimited recall rights for flight attendants who are involuntarily furloughed. They do have a chance to return to flying if they are furloughed. Hopefully sooner rather than later. If they take this voluntary separation package, they are permanently separated from
the company.
Actually the recall rights are only for 6 years. The actually language can be found on unitedafa.org. Click on the tab contract. Its Section 18.G of the agreement on page 173.
Why don’t we all agree for reduced hours for one year and it will be a win win to both parties.
I agree w the contract. Rt now 1/2 of the flight attendants are on voluntary leave. That means 50% are going without to help support the company and the new CEO seems to feel there is more FA’s can do by reducing hours? The contract and a union is what has fought for jobs and the people of UA. The government money would have gone in the management’s pockets (again) had the union not stepped in. UA will survive and bounce back. People want to and have to travel. There is a voluntary furlough process, which allows for FA’s to maintain medical and flt benefits. Hopefully come Oct there will be more flying and those who can will choose to volunteer and the management will agree that is enough to “save” the company. Involuntary furlough w no medical and no benefits would be an incredibly disappointing way for the company to handle things.
Well said, LS! I’m not sure what airline some of these people who post fly for, but we are all different in many ways. In the aftermath of 9/11, involuntary furloughs were inevitable, but those of us directly affected (involuntarily affected, not volunteering to take time off) were told about the recall rights and we always knew we’d be coming back if that’s what we chose. Then all of the “voluntary” leaves began, we eventually started hiring in 2006 (the first time after 9/11) and leaves were offered on/off throughout the years leading up to the merger. Dante mentioned these voluntary leaves which are similar to the current “colas” being offered and other options that can come into place before any involuntary furloughs in October.
Voluntary Separation is a new term used and it’s a permanent removal from the company with really nothing of significance to offer in the long-term. This is an option, but if you like this job and want a future in this industry, don’t be lured into a false need for people to leave the company. Every person I know who quit flying, for one reason or another, regrets it to this day.
This is for “Optimistic United Employee” and anyone else who thinks we should all agree to reduce hours…
We are already working under reduced hours. To build schedules under the contractual “minimums” would mean taking more of a pay cut than what we are currently taking. In October, there will be more flying, but it won’t be anywhere near normal. Lines will be built and the only fair thing, if needed, is to furlough. This is how it has always worked in this industry…no need to complicate things. I don’t know what they have been telling new hires since we first merged in 2011, but your seniority in the airline industry golden. It’s all anyone really has and it needs to be protected!
I, too, am an optimist and I don’t want to see anyone involuntarily furloughed, including myself. We just need to wait it out and not think someone is more entitled than anyone else.
I’ve got 42 years with United Airlines. I myself was once furloughed
back in 1981 for 8 months. While furloughing f/a’s and other employees is not ideal, it has to happened to keep this airline from going under. Like other f/a’s have mentioned, this author has no idea what it’s like to walk in our shoes. The airline industry, especially the union employees, f/a’s, pilots and mechanics is SENIORITY DRIVEN! Everything is based on SENIORITY. From work schedules, vacation, boarding priority for pleasure travel, etc. All in all it’s a different animal than any other company. While I sympathize with employees that might have to be furloughed, it just will have to happen. To suggest SENIOR f/a’s take a pay cut, ie, work less hours to keep other f/a’s on the payroll just won’t happen. That’s why we have a contract in place that United negotiated with our union AFA. We are in trying times and I feel badly for the changes that will not only happen at United, but all of the other carriers too!
Mathew Klint,
NO, the AFA should not and will not tell the junior FA’s to take the concessionary voluntary separation package.
The voluntary packages are not agreed to by the AFA….. It is a concession. that will be very difficult to overturn when the times get better.The CBA clearly indicates how this should be processed,and that is furlough of the junior employees.You have no clue of United’s relationship with its employees! I suggest you do some research.
The separation package is not been offered to junior flight attendants only to flight attendant of “certain age” or most senior flight attendants.
That’s ridiculous. Why? Recall right for up to 6 years? Why would someone separate? You’ve got a very odd sense of logic…or likely just doing corporate bidding.
I doubt you’ve been part of a union. This piece reads that you don’t fully understand the impact of contract concessions. 80% loss of revenue, resulting in layoffs for months does not equate to laid-off employees coming back to a decade or more of suppressed wages and work rules. Don’t lend your hand at gutting my job and the things that make it solid. Fill your airtime telling me how your mindset is relevant. It simply isn’t. And this piece lends an embarrassing light to how little you understand.
Mathew obviously hasn’t read or doesn’t understand the AFA’s CBA nor has he been an employee of United Airlines.He’s talking out of his ass.
Absolutely! Last hired first fired.
What we give up now we will not get back. Let me say that again…WHAT WE GIVE UP NOW WE WILL NOT GET BACK. We went through it before, promises were made and promises were broken. Why do you think there are so many senior flight attendants? Pensions and livelihoods were taken away, they can’t afford to retire. Darling if you know so much about United and the inner workings of being an FA then you would have never opened your mouth.
After 22 years with United, I have sacrificed enough. I find it insulting of you to suggest flight attendants should take pay cuts to preserve the jobs of jr FA. Ah no.. it’s funny how all the suddenly the jr FA wants solidarity from the sr FA. Why would you think SR FA after years of effort will walk away with crumbs so jr FA is happy. Maybe you want to spend your time explaining your wife how the airline industry works, as seems you all knowledge & mighty. Sorry your wife is whining and you have to put up with, I am certainly not leaving so you have a happy marriage.
Hear this for a moment. It is time for us all to take a reflection time out. Quiet down all the hateful, anger inducing words and comments. The UA team as a whole could benefit from hashing out a plan to move forward, the AFA would be certainly setting a good example by keeping an open dialog and not reacting out of fear but willingness to help ALL members. Senior crew shouldnt have feel like they’re selfish considering what theyve put into yheir profession for so long. Focus must be to help eachother, and being human, these are far different circumstances we’re dealing with its time to stop the rudeness that have become more common lately. And dont bring up British Airways again thats a bad situation and shoukdnt be mocked or antagonist remarks made. Thank you and Best Cheers
Flight attendants were bailed out by lawmakers, they won’t be bailed out by reality. You already received more than you should have, just ask the 20M+ who recently lost their jobs because they didn’t have powerful lobbiests. You are basically unskilled labor, a job that anyone physically capable could do. There are 100 candidates eagerly willing to take your job for each one of you ingrates. You’re not special, get over yourselves.
Let me guess. You’re an AMERICAN.
Tell that to the flight attendant next time you or one of your loved ones is on a plane & just happens to have a stroke, heart attack, seizure at 36,000 feet. You’re probably one of the ones who just sits there & gets their phone out to record but would never have the slightest clue on how to help another human being.
Please stop with the first responder comparison. It’s really quite insulting to those who work for the same amount of money and put their lives in jeopardy every day. Especially since your first line of defense in any medical emergency is to ask for assistance from passengers. Most of whom who could probably assist someone in distress better than you (even if not a medical professional).
I don’t agree fully with WR2, but I also think this first responder crap you all tout is laughable. Trust me, if I am distress, you are the last people I want touching me. And anyway, you probably won’t as you are too busy running down the aisle looking for anyone who can.
Wow, pretty hateful comments. Better wear a sign around your neck that advises flight crew not to assist you if you’re in distress. Doesn’t sound to me like you’re worth saving anyway.
As a Flight Attendant, we are required by the company to request any professional medical caregiver to assist us with medical emergencies. We have to comply or face discipline and possibly being personally liable for damages. What an awful comment Stuart.
Hope you remember your thoughts when that is happening to you. We will make sure no one touches you or when your ass is in an emergency crash situation. Don’t expect respect for you and your job when you have no respect for others. This is what is wrong with America people like you Stuart. And I agree with Jane wear a sign do not touch assist or save your disgusting life. It will be our pleasure not to assist you. Better yet don’t fly. Take a damn bus. Moron!!!
While flying for Northwest Airlines I was a proud member of AFA. Previous to that, I served as AFA’s Master Executive Council President for Flying Tigers. I agree with AngryUnitedEmployee.
If I learned anything during my 30 years aloft, it was that nothing given-back ‘temporarily’ by flight attendants during bad times is EVER voluntarily returned to flight attendants during good times. And that management is not EVER looking-out for either their employees – or their passengers! – best interests.
I agree wholeheartedly with AngryUnitedEmployee. Furthermore, nothing good ever comes from concessions. Management will use every opportunity to take away from their employees while their golden parachutes are sitting in the corner. Seniority has it’s benefits – that’s just the reality of the industry. We all knew what we were getting into when we took our jobs.
This isn’t management trying to take things from workers. Its a pandemic and United is tetering on the edge of bankruptcy. If everyone gave a little they might make it through this intact rather than everyone getting hurt.
With all due respect, Happy Guy, United is not on the edge of bankruptcy. American, Delta and United all went into bankruptcy and took major concessions after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. This pandemic is worse because it came suddenly and reduced flying almost over night…but people will come back to flying and already have. For those of us who flew during 9/11, we remember the impact on the industry being slow and gradual and lasting until those 3 major airlines mentioned above merged with other airlines that went bankrupt. I was more junior than your wife at the time and although I was upset about being involuntarily furloughed twice, I stuck it out. We never assumed or expected someone who has devoted 20, 30, 40+ years to their career to give up their livelihood. We learned that time had to be put into a job and things in life weren’t always given to you so simply. What I would say to your wife’s seniority and those junior is to be grateful the gov’t has allowed 6 months of protection during this time. When all is said and done, the airlines most likely wont go under…although 3 major airlines might eventually evolve into 2.
Hi Jio, United is not in good shape, I hope they do not go bankrupt. It is possible though as they are bleeding billions of dollars. My wife loves her job and she will stick it out no matter what happens. As you said nobody should give up their livelihood, but if everyone gave a little such as reducing hours for some months, things might get back to normal with nobody needing to be furloughed, but SOME (not all) hard nosed senior flight attendants are unwilling to budge at all. I think it is highly selfish as if I was in their position I would be happy to help as much as I could even if it meant a TEMPORARY reduction in hours.
Max
June 2, 2020 at 11:52 am
Matthew Klint
Covering information on an Airline like United or any other does not make you an expert. Living the industry for 40 years does. Constant change of management, pay cuts, furloughs, bankruptcy with a foreign carrier where rules did not matter although we were unionized will change your mind. If you know about airlines you should know, that concessions given to the company you never get back. For CHRIS where your comment that you don’t need someone yelling at you heads down and getting you off an aircraft alive. Good for you but the rest of those passengers on your flight do. If not look at what they call miracles like on the Hudson River and many accidents where FLIGHT ATTENDANTS have saved lives. We are not just there to give you your drink or meal. Hope you never get sick or have a heart attack on board because we will be the ones saving your life. Again a lot of passengers in the world are grateful we are not there to just serve coke. And on my 40 years passengers have never been my enemies. In fact I always enjoys talking with them. I will tell you nowadays the self entitlement people have taken not just in travel but in life in general where everything is ME ME ME AND IT’s all about me makes traveling very hard. People when they get on think my overhead, my crew, my airline. Guess what that is not the way it works. People are forgetting They are paying for transportation from point A to point B. Read your ticket people don’t anymore. I am sorry but people have to learn how to travel and we do have many many many who don’t know. But always remember that the way you treat people you will be treated. Buying a cheap ticket does not entitle you to treat another human being wrong ( i don’t care who it is Flight Attendant or whoever ). And we are seeing it nowadays with abusive behavior by certain police on black people ( and btw I am white) and yet again one bad apple does not make all men in blue bad. I have a lot of respect for them for what they do. I could go on and on CHRIS but people just have to understand things only affect you when you are in the pot. From outside you can’t see the big picture and that goes for you Matthew. You don’t know what going into bankruptcy until you do. Or pay cuts or a 20 hrs duty day with delays to get you home or the way they keep reducing staffing to save money while increasing the workload. Which keeps happening. I am an Ex Continental Airlines flight attendant and we had Gordon Bethune who turned us around. He is a loved man with CO employees because he never forgot who we were and treated us correctly. Him like Sir Richard Branson in Virgin and a few others CEO’s have always said it “ My customers are not first, my employees are. If I have happy employees I will have Happy Customers” and he did. We all loved to work for him. Very happy years under his direction. Everyday we are sorry he left. And that is the total truth. So believe I am only one of many flight attendants that has been thru a lot and I am almost on my way out. Happy Guy. I am sorry about your wife situation but really until you have put 40 years into a profession and in the case of United flight attendants and pilots and your retirement has been taken away you would not understand. Not because you can’t but because you don’t want to. I am still one of the lucky ones because my Continental retirement is still safe for the moment. Understand one thing your wife can still find another job and being junior is just a bad part of this situation we all were in the same position and had to go thru a lot too. If you are upset about her being furloughed how do you think people with 40 years feel about losing their pension their job being back on reserve making less than half and losing their livelihood. One last time when you Matthew, Chris, and Happy Guy because I stopped reading, just too many have lived thru all that in a 40 years span, then maybe just maybe you will get the big picture. Until then you are entitled to what most of us going thru this feel is totally unfounded. Matthew again 10 years from the outside will never equal 40 on the inside. Sorry but that is just the way it is
I just had my 21st anniversary at United. I love my job and everything it has to offer. As a 21 year flight attendant I was involuntarily furloughed after 9/11. We were just furloughed, plain and simple…”plan to be out a year” was what my supervisor told me. In defense of the company, they didn’t know what to expect in 2001 and they don’t know what to expect now. I was lucky and my seniority (May, 1999) came back to flying within 3 months…although we lost “system seniority” which didn’t mean a lot back then, but will mean a whole heck of a lot when we bid our schedules in October. Then we were involuntarily furloughed in 2003 when the US went to war with Iraq. This furlough was much shorter for everyone involved, lasting less than 2 months. My rambling point is that no one, the company and AFA, thought twice about involuntarily furloughing the most junior flight attendant. As the most junior at the time, we didn’t complain either. Yes, we were frustrated and discouraged, but the majority of us didn’t quit. We were told to just wait it out and eventually we came back to flying. We flew during United’s bankruptcy, took concessions, lost promised pensions and supported our airline through it’s successful emergence from it all. Then, came the merger…and that was a mess! AFA makes an important point about no more concessions…we already gave, lost so much and really have no more to give.
My question to all flight attendants out there (from the super seniors to the most junior) is this…Do you still want to be a flight attendant and do you still like (or love) your job? If you do, then stay and see what happens in October. I was junior once (and at United, I still am unfortunately) and a senior fa told me to “hang in there” after 9/11. Even with all that’s happened throughout my 21 years and especially what’s happened since March, I’m so glad I did!
The flight attendants’ collective bargaining agreement includes provisions for special voluntary furloughs and job sharing during downturns in the industry. If the company wants to discuss anything beyond that, they know how to contact the union’s leaders.
Good. For years unions have extorted unfair and excessive wages from the airlines. This has put them in bankruptcy several times over the last 30 years. In the U.K., absolutely the 25-35k gbp in the new British Airways wage structure for flight attendants is too low. However, it’s the opposite for flight attendants in the states who still earn too much given the poor level of service they are known to perform. Now that there will be hundreds of thousands of flight attendants in the labor market looking for a job, unions can’t be in control.
Btw keep using a different last name every time you post, far right wing Jackson – very Russian bot amplifying tactics-esque
Nothing wrong with seniority being golden but there should be an age limit on FA like pilots have. It’s a very physical job. In my opinion age 72 should be a start
The company has every bit of relief it needs currently in the AFA-CWA Contract. There is a provision entitled, “Furlough Mitigating Partnerships.” This allows people to share a schedule and work part time. Then there is Voluntary Furlough which provides the same medical and travel benefits you would receive as an active employee. Before the company comes crying broke and begging for concessions, they should offer these things. To date, they have not.
To the person that said FAs make too much money…well thankfully you are not in charge and not in a position to make decisions. I will have you know that Flight Attendants are a very highly educated group. Most of us have degrees and are extremely intelligent and marketable in the labor force…not only because of our education but because of our diverse skills dealing with life threatening and/or other trying experiences one may encounter on or off the airplane. Aviation’s First Responders is exactly what we are. Flight Attendants save lives each and every day.
And by the way, AFA-CWA IS the Powerhouse Voice for our profession. AFA-CWA is the very first Union for Flight Attendants in the world and has been very successful for over 70 years.
“Again, the fear is palatable.”
mmm. yummy fear. I’m guessing you meant “palpable.”
LOL
The conversation here underscores why the service on United is so crappy: over-entitled, unskilled employees who make $60K to be surly to customers. They use their union to secure their positions in spite of performance that would get them fired at any other job. They also use it to keep out young people who might actually work hard and do a good job.
At the end of the day, a union is a monopoly — a monopoly on labor. The govt. needs to start prosecuting unions just as it does other monopolies.
@Dante Harris
Flight attendants open and close doors. Flight attendants serve drinks and snacks. Don’t conflate being a flight attendant with a neurosurgeon. People like you are the reason why flight attendants of the Big 3 are rated the worst in the world for service performance and passenger satisfaction. European flight attendants are in unions but they are mostly young people 20-35 who take pride in providing competent service and taking advantage of the travel and social opportunities. Then they move on into positions that allow them to raise a family and have a career. A select few become pursers. U.S. flight attendants of the big 3 stay on 30 years past due and form the snobbish and pathetic attitude you have. The forced diversity programs make it worse. Seeing 60 year old flight attendants is common. If you really believe what you say that is concerning for the safety of air travel. Your whole statement is delusional.
@GS Guy
Probably the best comment in the history of this blog. It hits the nail right on the head.
Just wanted to clarify a few things…
•”Big 3″ flight attendants don’t open/close doors…unless you’re in an emergency.
•We do serve drinks/snacks, but always with a smile.
•No one is equating our job with that of a first responder or neurosurgeon. I’ll admit, I was a bit uncomfortable when I heard that term being used by my union, but in reality, we are the first responder while onboard the aircraft. We are trained to react to any type of emergency first, while other flight attendants try to locate emergency professionals that might be traveling on the flight.
•The “Big 3” are not rated the worst airlines in the world, but I will admit we aren’t the best either!
•Competent service does not always come from that young, over-rated, entitled and impatient age group you mentioned above. I’m not in that age group, but I’m not 60 either. All I know is every age group in our job has their share of negative, lazy, selfish and constantly complaining flight attendants. But some of the hardest working flight attendants are those with the seniority you could only dream of!
I would also like to add that United Flight Attendants have already been punching above their weight to try and save this company. For example we number just over 25,000 strong yet more than 12,000 have taken the company offered leave of absence.
So in other words more than 50% of our workforce is already off the property despite us being just over a quarter of all employees at united.
My question thus becomes: what are the other workgroups doing to mitigate costs?
While I dont agree with everything the AFA does, I wanted to put their position in perspective.
I agree 100% with you, Sam. The fact that nearly half of our work force is currently on some sort of leave shows our work group’s commitment to United. I also don’t agree with everything AFA does…sorry to bring this up again, but those on the UA side who lost system seniority (late April ’99-Sept 2001) after 9/11 could be right there again at the furlough line in October and while CO fa’s were furloughed, they didn’t lose their seniority after 9/11. I get that it was a different airline/union at the time. But when we merged, AFA didn’t do anything to preserve our “start dates.” If both sides lost their seniority it would be equal, but that’s just not the case and AFA ignored us and now it really matters! That being said, it’s time to really support one another and the union during this time to show we won’t and can’t take any concessions and that contracts matter.
Sorry JJO, the 12,000 employees are taking advantage of unemployment paying up to $1,000 per week (state plus $600 federal), not for the good of United, but for their own desire to avoid work during this crisis. I don’t blame them, but let’s be clear that they are not doing this for United, but because this works for them.
I hear ya on that one, Ed. But that’s the way the company and gov’t has allowed this to work. A month after 9/11, it was involuntary furlough, with no other options, for my seniority.
While some may be doing that Ed, the majority are not.
I would like to point out that at our current pay rates and minimum guarantee of 78 hours on reserve, it still is less money per month to take the leave and collect unemployment versus staying on the payroll and getting paid to sit around on reserve.
Matthew Klint, please remove the picture on this article of the 4 flight attendants at United. You do NOT have there permission nor do you have United’s permission. These flight attendants are getting harassed and should not be subjected to your opinionated article.
How are they getting harassed? This is a stock image taken from a United PR video.
I like this website. I’m on no form of social media, so when your website pops up in my Google feed, I take a second look…sometimes. Ha! Thank you for this site, Matthew!
Thank you for reading and for your insightful comments!
Are we sure they are actual United flight attendants? They are, after all, smiling.
Lol, True…
I flew a lot last year and probably only saw two UA FA’s smile at me and that was only after they opened up to me. In contrast I also flew with European carriers and had friendlier service than I did at UA.
The position of the senior FAs is appalling….they’re throwing their juniors to the wolves, when a collegial approach involving shared pain ( and gain..) would be far better.
Many of these old crones are only interested in looking after themselves, reminiscent of a pack of vultures scrabbling to get first peck at a carcass, and warding off interlopers.
The solution must involve a diminution of salary and benefits, lest the whole show go broke. It can’t be that the seniors get to go on as before…it just won’t work.
It goes without saying that management and stockholders need a haircut as well..they are not immune.
Paolo…the seniors aren’t going on as before. No one is, including management. (I can’t believe I’m defending both groups.) The reduced hours we’re all working under is already a “diminution of salary and benefits” as you say. I’m not one to work 100+ hours either. I’m just one of those average 80-85 hour fa’s…which is what the norm was before all he’ll broke loose with the unlimited flying!
For those of us who independently pay our own rent and bills…don’t have a husband/wife, divorce settlement, trust fund or parents helping out…our contractual terms are paramount. One day you might be a senior papa “scrambling” for that first peck.
You completely lose your point/argument with the comment ‘pack of vultures ‘
You know little or nothing about the structure and function of our industry.
Meh. Since they’re only here “for our safety” and they never miss the opportunity to let everyone know, I dont have an overwhelming amount of sympathy for them. They’re just eating their own.
Everyone, this is a blog, a blog from someone who does not do what we do, has not worked in our ranks, let alone understand or know the system we agreed to, and hired on to. Every aspect of our jobs, and most other employees are based on seniority and union contracts were they exist. We know who we are, as well as what we were told, and what we agreed to at the time of our employment. Take his comments and hypotheticals with a grain of salt, he has no real knowledge or understanding of ‘our’ structure You lost the argument with the comment ‘pack of vultures ‘
I work for delta, we all agreed in early April in a reduction in hours. We know that layoffs might come we also know that Delta will have are back when the time comes . Why not sacrifice a few hours for the lower ranked employees . No one wants to be layed of during these troubled times .
You work for Delta. What employee group? Delta Flight Attendants are not unionized…so using the term “agreed” is not exactly correct if you are in that employee group.
Delta Air Lines and its pilots union are at loggerheads over how to cut costs as travel plummets due to the coronavirus pandemic.
The union reached a deal last month to offer pilots voluntary time off at reduced pay. Meanwhile, Delta has asked tens of thousands of other employees, who are not unionized, to volunteer for unpaid leave.
https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta-pilots-union-loggerheads-over-cost-cuts/LEEPxW4cKHKFCSVYrNCkjM/
It’s as Matthew Klint, the blog author, stated…what he says is conjecture.
As an airline employee for many years, I’ve seen and experienced the ups and downs (literally) in our industry. What I’ve found is that our contract protect us. We have to be very careful and not be cavalier about what we have fought for in the past. Protections don’t come easy. We all understand that these are trying times and many people, airline employees included, are suffering. Still, from past experience, this is not the time to let down our guard and accept what airline management decides is the cure for our ills. We will work it out together…union and management. In the end, we will come up with a plan that benefits everyone in the long run.
Any other suggestion is tantamount to union busting.
Have a nice day…fly safe.
You know little to nothing about our industry, our jobs and the structure/function of said jobs.
I’ll leave it there
@ann ….and you know nothing of your customers — people like me who are fed up with getting the worst service in the world, whilst the unskilled flight attendants responsible for that lousy service are getting paid more than teachers and nurses who have invested years in college and graduate-level educations.
“We’re here for your safety….” United’s overseas FAs are the last people I would entrust with my safety. Half of them can’t even close the overhead bins in a 777 — asking passengers to do their jobs for them.
Have you tried to close over 100 bins weighing 30 pounds or more? Asking a passenger to assist in closing bins is the start of safety, not a lack of it!
We need to stop pretending. If you’re not capable of closing bins, it’s clear that you won’t be able to handle exit doors and windows either.
Being an FA should be like being a waiter — you do it for a decade in your 20s and move on. The way things are now, people do it for 50 years because the union ensures that they get paid more and more the longer they stay. In the meantime, their service gets worse and worse and their ability to ensure passengers’ safety goes to NIL.
And don’t cite some stupid example of a 70 year-old flight attendant who is still wonderful. I actually know a few of them myself. But they are one in a 100 at best.
GS,
We have to complete and pass emergency training every year, which includes scenario-based aircraft evacuation drills, in-flight hazard events, medical emergency procedures, computer based training throughout the year and customer service training. As long as a 70+ year old can mentally and physically complete training, they have every right to remain flying.
Whoever posted the comment about “closing bins” is wrong, in my opinion. Closing bins IS our job and there should never be a reliance on any passenger to help out in that respect.
I’m not posting this as a senior flight attendant…I’m saying it as someone who respects the desire (and sometimes “need”) that people have to remain in the work force…no matter what career they’re in. In America, the airline industry allows people of ALL ages as long as they complete all training throughout the year.
GS GUY. Maybe if you had a better attitude towards people and respect you would be treated better. You seem to deserve to be disrespected just like you are doing to others. Don’t be jealous of people that are making that kind of money and earn it working. I don’t know what you do and hope you make more than that, but i don’t believe so. If you are so unhappy flying take a freaking bus. We have earned our wings. They were not bought or given to us for free. You get respected only when you respect and in your case that is why there is none for you. I believe people in your job probably have the same opinion of you that you have of flight attendants.
The FA’s are right….. why have a union if you’re not going to let it speak and negotiate on your behalf?
Sort of like hiring a defense lawyer but totally dismissing or ignoring him/her when you’re actually on trial.
Remember, senior people were once junior. If the company really cared why didn’t they offer buy outs for the senior people leaving your junior people in tack? What has been agreed upon is what the contract outlines. The contract was voted on. Why is it you are putting the weight on the rank and file and not corporate greed America.
When 9/11 hit, I had 1 year as a flight attendant. I was furloughed. I let my union speak for me then as much as I do now. Solidarity. It may hurt some for a while, but in the end, solidarity will keep us strong. All of us.
Well said, Scott! You stuck it out, I did and the majority stayed through it all because we love our jobs. I just flew with a flight attendant who recently celebrated 50 years at United. She made a very interesting comment…
Since she started flying in 1970, there has never been a “decade of normalcy” in the airline industry. In other words, every 10 years (+/-) something major has happened in society to create a disruption in an airline workers career…and let’s face it (and get off our flight attendant “high horse” ) disrupt all careers like Covid19 is currently doing. This woman was amazing…she was 70 years old, smiled all the time, was energetic and had wisdom to share without that “unaffected” entitlement that a lot of senior fa’s system wide (not just at United) have.
Matthew you are way out of line in trying to be the arbiter of what’s best for United Flight Attendants ( and pilots). Most junior crew members would rather take the all but inevitable furlough and have a good paying job to come back to . When pay is cut it’s very difficult to get back in negotiations. The idea of taking a pay cut in order to prevent furloughs is a an old management tactic that always turns out to be an empty promise in the end. Please stick to writing about things you actually understand like frequent flyer points.
Gary , you obviously have little to no knowledge of how a union works … yes , we have a contract and NO United cannot negotiate with the junior flight attendants directly… it just doesn’t work that way . AFA is the only voice at the table ! The contract negotiated with United is solid and will be upheld ! NO CONCESSIONS!
This entitled & selfish 34 yr employee has taken paycuts 2 other times & this would be my 3rd time. Dear reader, how many times have you taken a paycut for the team? Sorry but NO CONCESSIONS.
it’s not taking one for the team, its helping your fellow flight attendants….oh nevermind….good lord ANOTHER crabby old S-UA employee.
To all the flight attendants posting that they have 40+ years with United. You’ve worked a full career. Surely, some of you are eligible for your pension after all these years, ,a year even eligible for social security by now. Why not step aside, retire and enjoy life? Think of the big picture and now just yourselves, why not allow those that are young and just getting started with their careers and adult life to remain employed?
Does anybody else notice a pattern here?
All of these disgruntled UAL employees, who bitterly defend their union, and preach how they need that union to protect them?
But they are the exact same ones that give all of the examples of being furloughed multiple times, taking pay cuts, losing pensions, on and in, and never getting any of it back.
Didn’t they lose all of those things, and not get them back (by their own words), while by “represented” and “protected” by their union?
Maybe they need to ask themselves a few questions and open their eyes.
I would like to be put on the mailing list. Pat Miller. U001941. Retired