121pilot, our resident commercial pilot on Live and Let’s Fly, sent me his thoughts on the controversy involving a Delta captain and a passenger who refused to affirm that she would leave off her obscene hat during the flight.
-Matthew
It’s as simple as this: many airline pilots will stop even attempting to mediate disputes if they are subsequently mocked on social media for being peacemakers. The result: more people will be thrown off flights than should be.
By now the story of the Delta captain who wasn’t wearing his mask when he confronted a passenger with an offensive hat has made the rounds in the travel blog sphere. Some of the coverage on this incident has been less than balanced especially Gary Leff’s poorly-titled piece that implies the passenger was kicked off for not wearing a mask and goes on to essentially label the captain a racist.
I found Matthew’s coverage of the incident to be fair and well-balanced and was initially going to leave it at that. But his piece hit on an interesting note that I thought was worth discussing.
Matthew said:
“Bravo, captain…though at this point he probably should have just left the problematic passenger to a customer service agent. Nevertheless, I respect him for trying to solve the situation himself (instead of being a coward, like the captain who threw me off a flight).”
For those who don’t remember Matthew, back in 2013, was kicked off a flight for taking a picture of his seat, even though he complied with every request made by the crew. The captain in Matthew’s case failed in his duty and supported a lying and out-of-control flight attendant.
You WANT Pilots To Get Involved!
Now why do I think this issue is worth talking about? Because, the general reaction in most pilot forums has been that this incident serves as a reminder of why pilots should never get involved in customer service issues. As the argument goes, we have other people who are trained for that, so let them handle it. In the age of cell phones where everyone is recording and videos never show the entirety of an encounter, it is far too easy to be unfairly characterized. Quite a few of my professional colleagues simply will not get involved in customer disputes because of events exactly like this one.
Folks, let me caution you that you don’t want captains refusing to get involved. Because when you have a runaway flight attendant, it is far more likely that the customer service agent called to handle it is only going to care about getting the flight out on time. They aren’t going to ask questions and make sure they are getting a full picture. That takes time and usually these things crop up just before the aircraft door is about to close. When a confrontation with a FA occurs where the customer is actually being reasonable and compliant, your best bet of staying in your seat is to talk to the captain.
As the captain my first and foremost consideration is safety. Is the customer going to follow crew instructions once we get airborne? Or are they going to create problems and force a diversion? If you can convince me that you’re not going to be a problem in-flight then my default position is to let you fly. If I get involved, I’m going to take whatever time I need to make my own decision even if that means taking a delay. I don’t want to kick anyone off the flight but if you’re determined to be a problem, like the the passenger in this incident, then you’re not going to stay on the airplane. But if you’ve truly done nothing wrong and promise to follow flight crew instructions, then I’m your best bet.
Gary referenced a Southwest pilot who gave a woman his own T-shirt so she could fly when gate agents decided her outfit was too revealing. Do you think that would happen with a “not my problem” captain?
The Problem With Blaming The Pilot
Since I’ve mentioned him a couple of times, I think we need to talk about Gary’s article too. First the title: “Delta Captain Kicks Black Women Off a Plane, But He’s The One Not Wearing a Mask”. The title implies several things. First, by telling us the customer was black it implies that race was a factor. Second, the fact the captain wasn’t wearing a mask implies that she was kicked off for not wearing one, which we learn isn’t true at all.
It gets worse quickly. Gary writes:
“Apparently a flight attendant asked the woman to remove her hat and she wouldn’t. And that’s when the captain got involved. He’s objecting to the hat she’s wearing, but the bigger problem seems to me that he isn’t wearing a mask.”
(Emphasis provided is Gary’s)
Uhh, no Gary, the real issue isn’t whether the captain has a mask on. It may have been a simple oversight. There is no indication that he was deliberately disregarding protocol. More likely, he was simply preparing for departure and did not even think of it.
The real issue is that this passenger refused proper requests to remove her hat and when she did finally remove it, refused to say she would leave it off during the flight. Given her behavior to this point, the captain makes an entirely reasonable request that the passenger affirm she won’t put the hat back on during the flight. All she needed to do was say, “Yes” but instead she played games. Frankly, the captain’s biggest mistake was in not walking away the first time the passenger declined to answer his direct question.
Gary’s entire article essentially ignores the bad behavior. He brings up that you can wear an F-12 shirt in a courtroom, implying that Delta should allow it as well. He quotes Delta’s Twitter response, again implying the captain was racist.
Yes, the captain should have been wearing a mask. And yes, he could have handled this better. But to me, that’s not the story here. The story here is that the captain was the passenger’s best hope for remaining onboard the flight.
Bottom Line: Captains Will Refuse To Intervene, Hurting Innocent Travelers
My point in all this is that if you want to see more people being kicked off airplanes who do not deserve it, perspectives (and articles) like Gary’s make it far more likely. Sadly but undeniably, the more incidents like this that happen, where a captain is burned at the stake for trying to give a customer a break instead of just kicking them off the moment they so much as look strangely at a flight attendant, the less likely we as pilots are going to be willing to ever get involved.
> Read More: Delta Captain Should Have Worn Mask, But Petulant Passenger Deserved To Be Thrown Off
Most commercial airline pilots manage the job of flying aircraft competently. Others may find themselves on macho power trips, ask any flight attendant of tenure and you’ll hear the stories of those.
For those better suited to managing an aircraft rather than passengers, they should leave it to passenger service agents who have better resources.
I’ve seen more FA go on a power trip than pilots.
Without a doubt. The FA’s DO go on power trips too often. Mainly because they have been given authority that is way past their pay grade. I saw the video of the Captain that tried to intercede and the woman was completely out of line. Take off the hat that had an extreme vulgarity printed on it and agree to keep it off. End of story. Gary Leff is a moron that should never be given a forum to post his nonsense OPINIONS.
Exactly. It’s not your job. The FAs should be able to handle this instead of running to you like little rats in panic.
Don’t demean yourself getting involved in small things. Trump is a POS because he refused to stay above the fray which is why even respectable people have no hesitation calling him a POS. It’s his fault he didn’t maintain his dignity.
Trump you are a pos.
You’re obviously a sad little boy. You can’t stop thinking about Trump. He lives rent free in your little head. Seek professional help.
Nah. Trump lives rent free in the heads of his Trumpettes. He even tells you guys what to think and say. Nice try though
Speaking of a “sad little boy”, can’t wait to see your posts on 11/4 and onward when Trump has been bounced as a failed one-term president
I appreciate 121pilot weighing in, but to many readers, I think we view this woman’s actions as more or less innocent, so it probably would have been better had the pilot not intervened.
At the end of the day, a hat with the F word on it isn’t a safety issue. It isn’t an aviation security issue. Passengers aren’t in danger, and there’s no reason to divert. Had the woman been allowed to board without being harassed, the flight would have safely reached its destination and this wouldn’t be a news story. If a few people were offended, they’d be over it by now.
Here in Central Texas, virtually every ranch is flying the same blue Trump flag that says “No More Bull$h*t,” except it isn’t censored. I imagine most of those ranchers wouldn’t approve of the passenger’s hat, or of their children using the language on their flag, yet they fly them anyway. Maybe there is some law about posting offensive content alongside the highway, and maybe there isn’t. At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter.
Avoiding offending all people is impossible. Sometimes you just have to move on with life. Everyone can’t be right all the time, and Mr. Reilly would have been wise to just let this woman fly.
Jerry,
You’re right that the hat isn’t in and of itself a threat to flight safety. However her behavior was. Experience has taught us that people who behave badly in the ground very rarely become model citizens in flight. Often problems on the ground like this one become bigger problems in the air. Customers who view themselves as above the crews authority do pose a threat to safety and their fellow customers.
So if a person refuses to comply with appropriate crew instructions on the ground we have good reason to suspect that problem will continue inflight and could get worse. Which means we don’t want them on the airplane.
The hat may have been what started this. But it was the customer’s behavior not the hat which got them removed from the flight.
121,
The deeper issue underlying the F*12 is the O.D.D. the opposition to Authority – either GA/FA/FO/CSD/CPT. Same opposition carries over to compliance, plane behavior and safety of all passengers.
You see ODD in public schools, on school buses, resource officers, judges and LEO’s and in response to other people in legal authority. Power Trip or not.
“A behavior disorder characterized by a persistent pattern of defiant, disobedient, and hostile behavior towards authority figures, manifested by a frequent loss of temper, arguing, becoming angry or vindictive, or other negativistic behaviors”
I wish that yellow carding people meant permanent ban from that airline (alliance) for 5yrs even referring to Federal NFL
I think that this would shut down a lot of the drama if an airline took a hard stance – otherwise they risk alienating FF and leisure passengers.
Who wants to deal with the extra drama or potential missed connection.
Yes , people have bad day’s, but that doesn’t give you the right to ruin everyone else on the plane.
Mathew you’re a religious idiot that’s clearly a Republican (as 90% of religio-lunatic people are)
You’re embarrassing. Your children should be embarrassed by you. And they will be as time marches on.
LOL. Keep assuming Andy.
@ Matthew — Apparently Andy doesn’t know you very well. 🙂
I’m intrigued. Any specific reason for you not to ban this person from your blog (besides the fact that you don’t care what he thinks/says).
As long as there is no obscene language or blasphemy, “Andy” gets to stay.
I disagree. Matthew runs the very best blog about airline travel in the WORLD. If I am pressed for time, I check e-mail, one news website, and Matthew’s Live and Let’s Fly.
Many thanks Derek!
Wow, an anonymous person insulting others for their religious and political beliefs (and getting it wrong). So brave.
Andy, I think we could draw upon your description of Matthew to come up with a way to describe you. I’d start with omitting the adjective you used, but I’d keep the noun.
I freely admit that I write the following analyses of Matthew without having actually met him before. The opinions given below are from years of reading this blog. However, with how politically polarized the country is at the moment, I feel he deserves an objective defense. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Matthew seems quick to form an opinion and stand by it. His arguments are often written with conviction, where the picture is often painted as black an white rather than with shades of grey.
Although that may be perceived as arrogance, Matthew supports his positions with reasonable analysis and an unwavering willingness to engage alternate viewpoints based on factual evidence. He may have strong opinions, but he definitely also has an open mind. Conversely, he puts his money where his mouth is.
I’ve known men like him before. I doubt his convictions are ever set in stone. Assuming he leans either way on the political spectrum, I’m certain he’s the first to break with party lines and vote based on principle, respect for institutions, and moral obligation. This deserves our respect.
Nevertheless, because the shades of grey are ignored, Matthew seems prone to applying equal treatment in situations that demand fair treatment. I feel what permeates his writing is a sense that he’s unsympathetic toward those with a background different from his own. As much as we try to be objective, we all assess situations through the lens of our own experiences.
He’s a white male. The types of systemic racism or sexism he experiences as a fact of life is simply different to begin with. We can’t fault him any more than we can fault a perennially disenfranchised community from the belief that law enforcement does more bad than good. We all have our blind spots, regardless of whether we’re willing to entertain they exist, or even admit that they could.
Make no mistake, this does not invalidate his viewpoints, nor does it mean his logic is false. It simply means the opinions given on this blog are not representative of everyone. That’s expected. The good news is, Matthew remains at the front of the line when it comes to changing his opinion based on empirical evidence. Not to belabor the point, but this really deserves our respect.
The better news is, I’d wager Matthew is not only willing to change his opinion, but that he’d do it happily.
For instance, I’ll bet he’s changed for the better since becoming a father, growing more sympathetic to the stresses of parenthood in ways that were previously not even considered. It’s evident in his writing.
This remains one of the best independent aviation-themed blogs out there, if only because the posts aren’t carbon copied from every other publication. I look forward to many more years of reading.
Wow, what a kind note that you took the time to write. I greatly appreciate it. Indeed, my pursuit is truth and I am open to correction. My views have changed greatly over the years on a host of issues.
I don’t dismiss the struggles of Black Americans. I’ve wrestled with the issue here:
https://liveandletsfly.com/hart-race/
And well beyond that blog post, especially due to my time in the USAF, I have struggled personally reconciling issues of race and equality with the sort of jurisprudence expressed by Chief Justice Roberts (“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race”). I don’t believe Roberts is a fool who fails to understand shades of gray. I also don’t believe double standards are the way forward in any context.
As for this issue, I think Gary makes the best argument possible why this correction was so difficult for the Black passenger. I give credit to Gary here, for he has helped me to far better see the issue from her eyes (potentially, at least…she has not opined and he may be making a broad characterization of her based upon her skin color that does not accurately reflect what actually occurred). Yet, I cannot get past this: she was wearing an obscene hat. She was told to take it off. She refused. She was asked again. She refused. The captain was called. She complied. He simply asked her if she would continue to comply once the flight got in the air. She refused to say. So what if this was a battle of the wills? So what if there were racial undertones implicitly at play? The explanation for her conduct doesn’t excuse her conduct.
We should expect you to be able to make great arguments, knowing that you’re a lawyer! Reminds me of an exchange from House:
Cuddy: Then how is it that you always assume you’re right?
House: I don’t, I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Doesn’t mean that you can’t change your mind when presented with new evidence!
Seriously, though – the world needs more thoughtful arguments like yours.
Asarious seems to be trying to make a case for “lived experience.” The woman wearing the hat was in violation of airline policy and did not readily comply with requests from those in authority to remove it. So many of the tragic police encounters we see are a result of suspects refusing to comply with police orders. Try to escape a DUI arrest in a Wendy’s parking lot, steal a Taser and fire it at a police officer? Expect to get shot. Rapidly approach police officers while brandishing a knife and refuse orders to drop it? Expect to get shot. Refuse to comply with orders to bring yourself into compliance with airline policy? Don’t be surprised if you get kicked off the plane.
Also, is Matthew a White American?
The guest editorial seems to suggest that pilots may cede command decisions involving passengers more to FA and other subordinates. That can backfire.
I was once on a flight where the FA’s controlled (prohibited) communication between the passengers and the captain. The result was no diversion when the passenger had a possible brain injury. It happened because the FA had a preconceived notion of the situation and did not listen to the doctor on board. The doctor did not try to demand authority and insist on a diversion and the FA was unable to relay complex factors (not really that complex) of considerations to weigh. I overheard it all. The doctor basically said “here are 4 things to consider” but the FA couldn’t remember or understand anything except a request to divert, which the doctor would not give possibly because it depends on how the 4 things or so are weighted. For example, the doctor could not guarantee that there was a fatal brain injury and the American FA could only understand a “divert” or “no need to divert” request.
His handle should be snowflakepilot or whinylittlebabypilot as he has such a ridiculous reaction to criticism of another pilot.
His biggest blind spot is that if a pilot behaves properly no amount of cell phone video will result in negative press.
I prefer to fly with passengers who know better than to fight with the flight crew. Passengers who lack common sense when selecting their travel outfits or who otherwise can’t control their behavior, should read the Contract of Carriage before purchasing their ticket. Doing so would eliminate a lot of stupid questions. The number one responsibility of the men and women in the cockpit is to provide a safe flight. If a flight attendant has taken the extraordinary step to call the cockpit for help, the captain should quietly show the passenger the cabin door.
Trust me. After an aircraft has left the ground, assisting a FA who is overwhelmed by an unruly passenger is something you’ll never forget. Far better to give them the boot before the cabin door closes. Let the gate agents and/or the cops deal with them.
I don’t want pilots getting involved in such matter, preferring them to be fully focused on preparing for flight. These issues should be handled by a designated ground officer. I doubt it would lead to more people being kicked off. I’ve never seen anyone ejected; for that matter I’ve never really seen anyone behaving badly, in thousands of flights ( maybe a few drunken gluttons in J and F, but hardly noteworthy). Maybe this is the new passenger demographic mentioned by AA .
As a ex USAF best solution have them all put off the damn plane. There is no room for issues when airborne.
The fudge is all this nonsense? If u are a pilot, do whatever you want or your employer expects or whatever.
Don’t come here and whine about how you are going to be less of a helpful citizen because of something someone said on social media. Have some thick skin.
Yea, no one wants an idiot on a plane. But don’t forget a pilot is held to a higher standard.
So, if u as a pilot, are gonna pout and treat your passengers differently because some other people taking about some other pilot hurt your feelings…come on, please get over it.
These comments are made under a cloak of anonymity and should therefore be considered irrelevant and unreliable. The accused always deserves to know their accuser.
Lol. What a hypocrite.
1. Said pilot shouldn’t be involved as this was a trivial matters. Yet, claiming as seasoned pilot purposedly wrote an article about it and goes far to bashing other people’s article.
2. The captain isn’t wearing a mask is a simple oversight? Lol. Wearing a mask could prevent others being sick. Compared to offended feelings of seeing a someone’s hat, and being sick, you really need to sort out your priorities, dude.
I remember back then you wrote several articles defending Boeing for its MCAS fault which killed many people. You throw so many reasons to justify it. Yet, Boeing paid settlement to almost all victim’s family.
Are you really an experienced pilot? Or just kid with big mouth with flying times only in Microsoft Simulator? What a joke…
Such hate. God help our country when we have HATE dividing us. I hope you all like socialism, because if Biden wins that is what’s coming. IDIOTS!!!
I fly a LOT. I’ve had my share of power-tripping flight attendants and gate agents. I had to report one gate agent to Customs and Border Patrol. He got a huge fine and 3 months suspension. That was probably the worst situation I found myself in.
Gate agents and flight attendants are dealing with difficult people all day, every day. I’m amazing more of them don’t snap and take it out on someone undeserving. A pilot does not, typically, get involved with difficult passengers. On the rare occasion a pilot has helped me out, they have remained calm, listened to everything that was going on and resolved the situation in a reasonable manner.
I have ALWAYS been happy when a pilot got involved.
Should the flight attendant or gate agent be able to handle the situation fairly? Yes. Do they always handle things fairly? No. The pilot shouldn’t need to get involved but my experience has always been positive when they have.
P.S. I’ve worked for airlines. I know when I’m being lied to and when the flight attendant REALLY cannot do anything. Or if the flight attendant has options but chooses to be an ass.
The training that an FA receives is equivalent of a burger flipper at wendys,except the burger flipper at Wendy’s is much friendlier and unlikely to talk down to you, they also deserve to be paid more than most flight attendants I have encountered .
So with Matthew on this. Your accusations re: Matthew are not in evidence and therefore makes his children proud of him. He should not be embarrassed.
The woman was a reasonable risk and it does matter that she was dealt with. The captain was reasonable as well. Everyone needs to grow up – it’s his airplane, his responsibility for safety and his call.
This is a double edge sword, yes I do feel the Captain if he chooses should get involved, I feel sorry for the cockpit crew when it comes to this. Customers have been getting shit on by flight attendants and the airlines in general for over 30 years. The flying has become more angry, aggressive and in some cases an overflow from greyhound bus lines. Cramped seats, no food, piss poor service if any service and rules that change daily. All airlines should post their dress code and behavior that will not be tolerated online, at the gate, at check in etc. Gate agents let people slide by and do not say anything and then let the crew handle it. I’ve personally been able to spot the trouble makers at the gate, and sure enough I was right. I’ve seen gate agents let people board with 4 carry ons. So the blame is not one sided In most cases. Go to any grocery store and see who causes all the problems and holds up lines and causes others inconvenience, 99% it’s the customer being the asshole.