I received a call from Lufthansa on Friday concerning my EU261/2004 compliant I filed in late June. It bordered on hilarious.
If you recall, in June my Frankfurt to Munich flight was delayed due to a late-arriving crew, causing an unplanned (and unwanted) extra night in Germany. I shared the details here. This flight is virtually a textbook definition of an EU261 delay, as European courts have determined that one metric of measuring delay length is how late arrival is to your final destination.
John and I ended up arriving in Los Angeles a day late. We noted our expenses (hotel, taxi, meals) and put everything together in a spreadsheet for Lufthansa along with scanned receipts and banking details. In other words, we made it super easy.
A month went by and I finally received an email from Lufthansa stating we were not eligible for EU261 compensation because our flight from Milan to Frankfurt was delayed due to weather.
Wait, what?
I wrote back and explained to the Lufthansa agent that he was looking at the wrong flight. Yes indeed, we were delayed on the Milan to Frankfurt flight the night before, arriving into Frankfurt about two hours late. But that wasn’t the issue. I never brought it up in my letter and frankly wasn’t requesting compensation due to that delay because we still made our dinner plans in Frankfurt.
The issue was the delayed Frankfurt to Munich flight the next day. A few weeks passed and I never heard back from Lufthansa. Last week, I started emailing Lufthansa on a daily basis asking for an update.
The Incredulous Telephone Call
Last Friday, I received a call from Thea in the Philippines, calling for Lufthansa. She explained to me that John and I were not eligible for EU261/2004 compensation, but Lufthansa would pay for our hotels and meal costs due to the Milan to Frankfurt delay.
She didn’t get it either…
I explained to her that the full itinerary: Milan to Frankfurt / overnight / Frankfurt to Munich to Los Angeles was booked with a deliberate overnight in Frankfurt. We intentionally scheduled in the overnight in Frankfurt! Again, I explained my complaint was not about the Milan to Frankfurt flight and the two delays were not related.
Then she said this:
AGENT: I understand what you are saying, sir, but we can only compensate for the Milan to Frankfurt flight because that was the first delay on the itinerary.
I was totally taken aback.
ME: What do you mean? The delay in Milan did not cause the delay in Frankfurt the next day.
AGENT: Yes, but the agent rebooked you to LA.
ME: That’s not true and you’re clearly not understanding the situation. What does one delay have to do with the other? The original overnight in Frankfurt was voluntary and our flights to Los Angeles were not rebooked due to the delay.
AGENT: Sir, I understand but we cannot compensate you, but will pay for your hotel expenses.
ME: Can I speak to your supervisor?
AGENT: Sorry sir, I am the supervisor in charge.
ME: So you’re telling me, just so I am 100% clear, that Lufthansa will not pay EU261/2004 compensation because I was also delayed the night before on Lufthansa, just not as long?
AGENT: That’s correct sir. We can only compensate the first flight.
ME: Thank you, you’ll hear from me in writing.
CONCLUSION
Unless I am missing something, Lufthansa is acting like a shady insurance company, whose first response on a claim is automatic denial.
The delay from Milan to Frankfurt had nothing to do with the delay the next day. The first overnight in Frankfurt was deliberate and intentional. Lufthansa’s current position is incredulous and absurd. I’m now escalating to my executive e-mail chain. As always, I will keep you updated.
Have you had trouble collecting EU261/2004 compensation from Lufthansa?
> Read More: Lufthansa Fails Me, But Recovers Beautifully
> Read More: A Free Upgrade On Lufthansa…Just For Asking
Dealing with the same issues right now with Iberia. Twice I have gotten the same response saying simply they are sorry for any delay but that they are not responsible. How they are not responsible for a flight being delayed over 10 hours because they were short an aircraft is mind boggling.
Just curious about the “banking details” you said you provided them. What did you provide?
I provided them banking details to wire the payment to.
They’ll hear from you in writing just like Swiss? Why haven’t you said anything about Swiss? Not even, hey guys Swiss told me to go pound sand so I spent my money and got nothing?
See here:
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/08/18/ethical-hong-kong-airlines/
I honestly appreciate you writing about it and letting me know.
So, what was the outcome of your action Aeroplan?
Did you read link?
…..and this is why a whole industry has developed to pursue these claims
Will they pay for the hotel and expenses and eventually the 261 euros? Could be a good deal. You didn’t even want the hotel compensated correct?
EU261 is the law – Lufthansa owes John and me 600EUR each, plus expenses. I wasn’t pursuing it initially, but now want compensation for both delays.
Isn’t Lufthansa notorious for doing anything to avoid paying out in EU261 cases?
What’s your next step?
Continue to shame them publicly and hound the executive team via email. If all else fails, I’ll have to use one of those collection services. I don’t have time to pursue it myself beyond this blog.
Is it wise to declare you’re going to shame them publicly if you didn’t have it your way? (Your way, not the right way – according to Lufthansa, since no judicial body is yet to determine what is right and what is wrong in this particular case)
If courts have ruled that in identical situations to mine, compensation is due, then I don’t need to re-litigate the matter. Lufthansa just needs some pressure to do the right thing. Lufthansa is an unethical airline when it comes to irr/ops and needs to be called out on it. They hope people give up and go away and I’m not going to give up and go away.
I’d look into using the arbitrator “sop” that Lufthansa uses – I used them for a EU 261 claim against Swiss and got a reasonably quick (~1 month) resolution in my favor without having to pay for a collection service.
Yes, unfortunately this behavior from the part of companies is typical in Germany. I would have expected LH to know better.
Matt, sorry to say but continental-european judicial system differs from anglo-saxon system (which you may have learned since you’re an american). The line draws at jurisprudence. One system treat court decision as written law. The other consider eaxh and every case shall be examined individually, presedence is/are only indication, never a compulsory statute for deliberating.
You’re correct, but nearly identical fact patterns coupled with broad regulation on this matter lead to predictable, consistent outcomes.
Seems pretty clear they’re hoping you’ll go away if they delay, hinder, and obstruct long enough. Don’t let them get away with it! Use one of those EU261 consulting services if you have to.
Ah, yes, when there really is no other way to “defeat” an opponent, deploy the classic “Drag & Stall” play!
Exactly what one would expect from a party that knows it’s in the wrong, but hopes that by dragging & stalling for as long as possible, they’ll still get away with their malfeasance and prevail!
Matt, you’re a lawyer or at least law graduate. What would a lawyer have done if he/she knows exactly the client is in the wrong but refuse to pay out ot even admitting it? Suggesting client come clean is not possible, see previous sentence.
That is exactly what happened here. Unless you prepared to go big and fight a long and costly war at court or the likes, they already win.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter.
Huh?
Yeah, Lufthansa is behaving unethically. Their telephone agent basically told you that they aren’t paying you cause we don’t want to rules be dammed.
But I would advise any airline to behave in the same way. Paying all EU 261 claims automatically or with minimal fight would be prohibitively expensive. You have a 300 passenger flight that goes tech and is delayed 10 hours and now you owe 180k euros. I suspect if any European airline behaved ethically with EU 261, they would not be able to stay in business.
This behavior would be different if the rules were changed to penalize airlines for unreasonably denying compensation. But as of now, there is no penalty for their unethical behavior. Worst case scenario for LH, you use a EU 261 service and they pay compensation due in a few months.
So from what I’ve read in this post/replies, there’s no EU equivalent of “complaining with the DOT” if they refuse compensation? That sounds incredibly absurd for the EU, because they typically tend to be way better than the US in terms of consumer protection.
There is — each country has a competent authority for the implementation of EC 261.
Matt could file a complaint here:
https://www.lba.de/EN/Administration/AirPassengersRights/Denied_Boarding/Passergersrights.html
It’s (mildly) amusing that you are shocked by this, given Lufthansa’s track record of anti-consumer decisions.
I’m only amused at the excuse, not that they denied compensation.
Save your time contacting Lufthansa’s management and better submit the case to either ECC or CAA in Germany. It shouldn’t require more actions from you afterwards and both institutions are generally powerful in “convincing” airlines to follow set regulations. There’s no second chance to be given to any airline after initial compensation request – it’s just a waste of time. Let them face authorities right when they deserve it.
You were offered a connection to London that would have you had arrive 4 hours late and thus would not have been entitled to compensation. You refused.
If Milan – Frankfurt was delayed due to weather there also is no comp.
So looking at the whole situation LH actually is pretty generous with you as you actually are entitled to nothing at all.
If it were me on the the line you’d get an honest opinion on what your asking for.
Peter, you are 100% incorrect.
Even if BA and LH were like products (they are not), four hours is the threshold for 600EUR, so I would have qualified either way.
Furthermore, cash compensation is not due during a weather delay, but lodging and meals are. I never even asked for that – Lufthansa volunteered that.
Danke schön.
You stated that the delay would have been 4 hours – checking the actual arrival of the offered flight would shed a light on the possibility of compensation there – and you’re right, it’s four hours and not six as I thought.
Nevertheless BA would have been acceptable according to the law.
Sure, hotel would have been the airlines issue for the Milan part – if you would have needed one, which you didn’t.
Although I do understand the frustration, especially when traveling first (maybe even on a paid ticket?) – so far (in my opinion) there is no grounds for compensation. And even if the BA flight would have arrived to late – it’s your turn to prove it.
And if you don’t feel like you can spare any more time on this like you stated, there are enough companies who will do that for you if they find your claim legit.
Out of curiosity I checked your LH100 FRA MUC flights – you stated June so it must have been the 1st, 8th, 9th, 22nd or 29th as the delay on that flight has been at least until 11:45 in those days (not looking at the days it was cancelled).
Out of those days only one BA 269 LON LAX was on time (actually well before). This was on June 29th. So if your incident occurred June 29th you would not have been entitled at all (assuming doors opened early enough as that’s the time that’s important). For any of the other days you would have been entitled- if you would have taken the BA flight.
I know I sound like a know it all – but frankly, someone giving a rant about not receiving comp when they choices that let there where his own tend do turn up that unpretty side in me 😉 Bitteschön 😉
22nd.
dude you need to find a hobby
Thank you for keeping these airlines honest. Keep up the hard work!
I thought it was common knowledge by now that this was most airlines’ policy in responding to compensation claims by common travelers: Long delays in responding, evasive and erroneous response, just giving people the runaround. Any reason you didn’t consider saving yourself the hassle and file your claim via flightright.com or a comparable platform?
This is my first experience with this. It has been an enlightening learning experience.
Please don’t complain all the time. It’s very tiring. You fly premium cabins all over the world, spending a fraction of the actual cash cost and yet you complaint like an arrogant, entitled person. You’re not doing fellow travelers a favor by showing people how to honestly get compensated when things happen, you take this so personally and it’s all about you. This is your job, you fly so often that you’ll have your share of mishaps, own them, write them off, learn from them and give honest recourse options. But your constant bashing of airlines just because they don’t bow to you or give you what you think you are owed, or honor a first class fare that you knew didn’t seem right when you booked is unbecoming of the attitude that a well-traveled, worldly person should have. So please stop. The time you are waisting trying to get yours is tying up personel that might otherwise be able to help real travelers in real need of help, or compensation. Better yet, make contact on a professional level with people in customer service positions and try to improve things. But stop being so selfish and so incredulant when you don’t get what you want. The world is a big beautiful place and if you got to your destination in business class, safely, but a day late, just let it go. There are a lot of people at many airlines who work very hard to get us to where we all need to go and sure things could get better, but your approach isn’t making things better.
First, I fly so much the number of flights I complain out is a very, very small proportion to flights flown.
Second, just because I am smart enough to pay in miles doesn’t mean I am paying less than “actual” cost. I just use a better currency than cash.
Third, it is not I who declares entitlement, but EU law.
Fourth, I offer my consulting services to any airline would like me to speak to their customer service teams.
Fifth, check out my upcoming SkyTeam trip report. It will include a review of five flights and every single one will be positive. I just got off an excellent trip with great flights and lounges. If you’re looking for positivity, this will be it.
Appreciate your comments.
Great to hear, positive trip reviews are always nice reads. I also had an issue with LH a few years ago and here’s what I found. Don’t deal with their offshore phone customer service personel, the best way is to get into an email conversation with someone on the ground with LH in Gernamy. I finally got through to them when I researched airline compensation case law and found presendent where they offered compensation. I don’t mind your negative reviews of an experience, like a hard bed, cold food or other disruptions. It’s just the “I am owed something” attitude that I don’t like which I feels comes accross in some of your posts.
I get that no one likes whining, but isn’t it true that I am owed something, at least in the case of Lufthansa? Isn’t that what EU law says?
I just find it remarkable how Lufthansa seems to to totally disregard applicable law and make the process incredibly burdensome for customers to collect.
No, whining is just fine , as in cases such as this. You strike a good balance between it and the more positive. Plus there’s some good schadenfreude value when things go awry, as with Swissair.
Stuart to whom did you provide an email. I’ve been waiting two months for compensation on a canceled flight. Left onto says to give me 300 versus EU to 61 regulation of 600. Then they say they’ll give me nothing then they told me my airline was not an EU airline and so it goes on and on if you could please provide me someone to talk to in Germany that would be great. Appreciate your help.
Matthew, I’ve been reading your blog for a while. I read several others as well. I often find useful nuggets in the comments of the articles that I’m interested in. While I don’t know you any more than what I’ve read and heard you say at FTU, I wonder about your readers. I feel like you get more flack for sharing your experiences than most. I for one, may not be as seasoned a traveler as you (or others commenting), but I appreciate your views as they offer insights into what to expect or lookout for under similar situations.
Thanks Joseph.
Did you get to jack off in the first class lounge?
You are filthy scumbag!
Await to hear how the situation turns out. What do you suggest an average flyer do in your situation – but if they didn’t have the executive contacts you do?
The average flyer should file a complaint with the Germany competent authority for the implementation of EC 261
https://www.lba.de/EN/Administration/AirPassengersRights/Denied_Boarding/Passergersrights.html
Matthew,
I’ve gone through this before in Berlin. If you are interested, I have the name of a German (but still English-speaking) attorney that works on these claims. I received full compensation, and the other side — in this case, AirBerlin — had to pay almost all costs. And it was the same way: my claim was obviously right and they just hope you’ll go away. I know you’re an attorney, but there’s tons of “hin und her” on this and he knows the ropes. Might be worth at least an inquiry. Let me know via email.
Please let me know the attorney’s name thanks
Matt, have you filed a complaint with the Germany competent authority for the implementation of EC 261?
https://www.lba.de/EN/Administration/AirPassengersRights/Denied_Boarding/Passergersrights.html
But you should check that Germany is the right place for your complaint to be filed (and not Italy or some other EU country)
How am I a filthy scumbag? Sometimes we need to relieve ourselves when our ignitions aren’t there to accompany us. Using one’s god given hands is the way to do that.
You sick bastard. Why don’t you go eat a sausage and choke on it!
I love “riled up ready to fight for justice” Matthew.
Can’t wait to read how the saga progresses. 🙂
“Incredulous” normally describes people when they don’t believe something. The “something” they don’t believe could be “unbelievable,” “incredible,” “dumbfounding,” “baffling,” or a host of other adjectives, but not “incredulous.”
It might also be interesting to note (especially with badly behaving Ryanair demonstrating why a need exists for EU261) that:
1.) several EU-based airlines are currently seeking to weaken EU261 consumer protections;
2.) earlier this year, it was reported that in the UK some airlines only paid claims after liens were pending against them, and that it was only with the threat of having assets seized (furniture, computers, etc.), those airlines finally paid the claims passengers were entitled to;
3.) the blatant hypocrisy of airlines, especially Ryanair, but also Lufthansa, and many others, who operate with two different sets of rules:
a.) for passengers rules must be followed – or they’ll face all sorts of additional fees, “service charges”, “administrative fees”, “convenience charges”, penalties, punishments, “fare differences” or even complete forfeiture of the fare paid.
All of which is ruthlessly enforced with rare exceptions for anything short of the most dire circumstances such as death or serious injury;
b.) yet, for airlines, consumer protection laws and regulations are a pesky, inconvenient, nuisance they’d prefer to avoid completely, and if that fails, simply walk away from by any means necessary, even if that includes ignoring claims, or deploying the classic “Dragging & Stalling” method I referenced in an earlier reply post above.
To me, that’s the bigger problem: the greed, hypocrisy, hubris and arrogance of most airlines – it’s their way or the highway.
When we can’t follow their rules, we get hammered – AND when they don’t follow the rules, they still want us to get hammered.
And that’s just wrong.
Was the fare calculation of MXP-FRA-MUC-LAX as a “through” fare (essentially as MXP-LAX) or was it calculated with a stopover (MXP-FRA-LAX) If it was calculated as MXP-LAX is there a policy/law that allows them to only refer to the first delay? I understand your LAX arrival was still a day late, but…technicality’s?
Matt, what is your update on this? I have the same situation.
I was at FRA due to board LH572 for JNB on 21-August, when at the gate just minutes prior to boarding (we were already in line) we were told the flight would be delayed due to MX….about a half hour later we were notified the flight was cancelled because a mechanical system on the aircraft needed to be repaired. In fact, the flight was delayed by 13+ hours and left the following day, just past noon.
I haven’t yet filled an EU261 claim, as I am still on safari in Africa and writing this from my lodge (!), but I am concerned, based upon what you said, because my initial flight was LH499 which departed MEX on 20 August, arriving at FRA about 8 hours before the scheduled JNB departure. I can just now hear the offshore rep giving me the same song-and-dance routine that you received.
Also note, a few days ago I contacted a EU261 claim company–EUClaim.com, warning: don’t use them!–and they advised me their records showed my flight left on time as scheduled, and perhaps I had missed my flight, or got the days wrong! This, after sending EUClaim.com a pdf of ALL my boarding passes, a screenshot of the “delayed 13 hours” notice on AirStats, and an actual SMS from LH apologizing for the delay.
I have submitted a claim to the Luftfahrt-Bundesamt.
https://www.lba.de/EN/Administration/AirPassengersRights/Denied_Boarding/Passergersrights.html
On 2nd november 17, was booked on a LUFTHANSA flyght fron Bogota to frankfurt and Venice, but I was changed on a air france flyght to Paris and on to Venice one day later.
For this Lufthansa personals left me a REFUND CUPON for 600euros, but, as I got on lufhansa web site as indicated on cupon, I got transferred to some OTHER wich send me a mail in which between taxes and other services, compensation would be around 400euros.
Called the number and was told my compensation was paid, but to who.
After several calls and try to get a company representative, all useless.
Strange this company has good reputation, but behaves like clever mafia.
Hi ,
I am having a very similar problem with Latam.
It appears that I may have to take Latam to the small claim court.
Do you know if I need start the court summons in Spain as the first flight departed from Barcelona or Can i start in London where I live ?
Other problem with Latam is that they don’t give their postal so that the court can send the summons.
regards
I have a similar case with Lufthansa. Was flying with my partner LUX – ATH on C class 7th Aug 2018 when first flight landed not only late, but we had to wait forever for buses to take us from the plane to the gate. We arrived to the gate on time but LH had given away our seats already and next flight was next day, meaning less than 1 full day in Athens instead of 2.
I requested to be returned to LUX and issued with a refund, of course there was no immediate flight back so had to stay overnight at the shabby FRA Sheraton airport hotel. Then followed months of emails where LH just stated that they didn’t owe compensation (no reason given) and to make matters even worse even refusing to refund the ticket cost.
After many emails and complaints to SOEP , LBA and also a letter sent by my lawyer to LH I did receive the 261/2004 compensation, but not the refund of the ticket price (just a pro-rata refund of 3/4 of ticket cost as accoridng to Lufthansa’s logic I flew a quarter of the flights… because you know… flying Lux to FRA is so entertaining :P). This is now pending in court using the European Small Claims Procedure.
I had a similar case 3 years ago with SAS and in September of this year decided to sue them using the aforementioned procedure. End of November the court decided in my favour and I have already received the payout.
Long story short: From my experience one must *always* sue the airlines to get full compensation as they really behave like shady insurance companies when it comes to 261/2004 compensation.
I have a significantly worse case with Lufthansa and they are just ignoring my emails and telling me to check my account for a compensation.
We had a one-day delay because of delayed flight crew and missed the first day of a scientific meeting where I had a talk. The trip started in EU and ended in Fort Lauderdale. It was overall a very bad experience where we had to wait for a hotel voucher in DC for three hours, rent a car to get from Tampa to Fort Lauderdale etc.
They sent me 50 euros for this and althought I re-sent my claims for over ten times, they keep on telling me to check my account. They are not giving any other explanation and avoiding anything related to my claim and why this 50 euros was paid. I guess this is a strategy to make me give up. I will continue to email them and bring my claim further. EU261 claims can be made during the six years after a delayed flight and I am not giving up.
Keep following up with the CEO’s office. That is what it took to get them to respond to me.
They are a terrible airline, I am denied compensation too, due to ‘bad weather’ in a day when there was no bad weather, no other airline is claiming this at that time/airport and that was not the reason given for the delay at the time. I am getting great treatment when I have problems from EasyJet, but Lufthansa is a total let down and just show contempt for their customers. I have raised a complain via Söd , the CAA and will take them to small claims court as a matter of principle if needed.
My flight with Lufthansa was on Friday, February 1st, 2019, from Newark to Lyon, with a connection in Munich.
The first leg Newark – Munich was delayed by 1 hour (technical reasons), so I missed my connection and had to wait for the next flight to Lyon… which was also delayed.
This made me arrive in Lyon at 4:34pm (landing time) instead of 12:20pm. Which is a 4h14 delay, and under EU 261/2004 Regulation, I have the right to claim compensation for 600 euros (because the delay was more than 4 hours).
Lufthansa is telling me I am only allowed a compensation of 300 euros because my delay was 3h55… They are telling me my flight to Lyon arrived at 4:15pm, while this was the expected arrival of the plane. The plane was late and landed at 4:34pm, arriving at the gate at 4:40pm.
I tried to prove it with multiple public website like flightradar and flightaware that are tracking the planes and show that the aircraft was late in Lyon, but they are telling me their system show an arrival at 4:15pm and they don’t want to change anything.
They are lying in order to not compensate me as much as they should under European Regulation.
I’m so pissed by their childish communication (they don’t even know if the 4:15pm is landing or gate arrival…) that I’m going all in: I made complaints to :
– the LBA (Federal Aviation Office, competent authority for the implementation of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 in Germany),
– the SÖP (Germany’s independent arbitration board for public passenger transport)
– the European Commission.
I will not let this go Lufthansa…
Keep us updated, please.
Hi Matthew,
I have been reading your blog for a while and the experiences help me evaluate the airlines and its services better. However; in course of my recent experience with Lufthansa, I wanted to have an opinion from your side on how to mange this better.
I flew Delhi-Frankfurt-New York a week ago and my DEL-FRA flight took off after a delay of 2.5 hours and then there was a delay in landing at Frankfurt Airport which led to a misconnection for my onward flight to JFK making me wait at the airport for over 6 hours and alternate flight was also delayed causing me to reach JFK after 7.5 hours from originally planned time. After emailing Lufthansa, they responded that ATC was the reason for delay, hence they do not fall into the payout. Let me know what is true and how I can claim.
Thanks in advance.
Hi Tushar, thanks for reading. I think in this case, Lufthansa is correct. Air service in India has been crippled by the Pakistani airspace closures. Under current EU261/2004 regs, delays because of this do not trigger compensation payout beyond vouchers for food/drink/phone calls on the ground.
Hi Matthew, Thank you for your response.
I wasn’t given any vouchers due to lounge use on my business ticket but I assumed that the delay could be accounted for as the same is closed for over a month now and moreover they took off 2.5 hours late causing the misconnection. Thoughts?
Also, this is my 1st time claiming from airlines so it was more of excitement than the money.
Makes for interesting reading!
We have just opened a case with Lufthansa though I am not sure how its going to go. 3 flights on same booking code booked with Lufthansa and using United on one leg.(both star alliance members). The first leg was with United which was delayed 3 hours (technical issue on the plane) which meant we missed our Lufthansa connection in Houston and subsequently the connection in Frankfurt to Oslo. Ended up being re-booked all the way and got home 11 hour later than planned. After doing a bit of research i wrote to them and claimed €600 for each of us on the ticket.
I expect they will challenge me perhaps saying that it was Not a Lufthansa issue rather a United Issue and / or Technical issues don’t count. But I will fight it. We were put out immensely by this delay. (missed school for kids, extra days off work etc. etc.)
Do you know if delays on partner airlines count with the EU regulation?
I realize this post is a year old! But FYI, you mean *incredible*, not incredulous. 🙂 They’re not synonyms.