US carriers want the Biden Administration to restrict foreign carriers from using Russian airspace, arguing it places them at a competitive disadvantage. The Biden administration is considering the request. Yes, the demand is self-serving. But is the right move, nevertheless? Is it time to take a stronger approach to isolate Russia? Let’s explore the issue today.
US Carriers Want Foreign Airlines Blocked From Russian Airspace
Having recently traveled to Ukraine, I see a country under siege and also a stalemate, of sorts. Progress is slow and life in Kyiv has returned to a new normal. Even in the eastern regions, for many, the focus is on work, not war. Yes, there is an evening curfew as well as the occasional air raid sirens and rolling blackouts, but life goes on.
And this is so often true of war.
But what is the end game of all this?
A chain, or in this case sanctions, is only as strong as the weakest link.
So while the “West” has erected trade barriers to Russia, there are gaping holes in Turkey, Israel, India, the Gulf States, and China (among others). And that does not help Ukrainians (and also does not help Americans or Europeans…it just creates new middlemen that lead to higher prices for goods we still need).
Might it be time to go all-in or go home? Most Americans aren’t willing to consider explicit war over Ukraine. But look past Father Tucker Coughlin’s ramblings and you must concede that the Ukrainian cause is just. There is no objective justification for Russia’s war of aggression.
And yet the war drags on and progress is slow in part because Russians feel very little pain. Western isolation has led to a strengthened ruble and Russians continue to enjoy hassle-free travel to many nations. Life goes on as it did before. In fact, it’s better now. So of course, many Russians will support the “patriotic” effort to prevent that “horrible television actor” from committing “ethnic cleansing” of “Russian” people in The Donbas…
* * *
I have very little sympathy for US airlines, who leached off of taxpayers in a disgusting way during the pandemic. While US airlines express concerns over passenger safety in Russian airspace, that is really not the concern. The concern is operating costs, particularly the imbalance between those who can utilize Russian airspace and those who cannot. No airline banned from Russian airspace can compete even with higher loads given additional fuel, reduced weight with fewer passengers, reduced cargo, and costly technical stops when winds are unfavorable.
Of course, US airlines want a level playing field, which won’t benefit US consumers (it will lead to higher prices and/or less service).
But is that short-term pain worth a more expeditious conclusion to the Ukraine War?
Imagine if the US started blocking carriers that utilize Russian airspace. Are the Gulf States, Israel, Turkey, and India really willing to do business with Russia if it means being cut off from the USA (or the entire West)?
In one sense, this goes against every ounce of my political worldview. I believe in free trade and detest artificial barriers to commerce. Furthermore, we certainly cannot go to war (even just a trade war) with the whole world. This often ends up hurting the very people it intends to help.
But I also wonder whether our half-hearted current approach will ever lead to a resolution. How long will this war drag on and how will Putin and Xi be emboldened to stake territorial claims to more lands that do not belong to them?
An analogy. If you have rotator cuff issues and are in constant pain, would you spend two years with massage therapists trying to fix it or go for surgery that could end the pain for good? There are pitfalls to each approach, but the painful surgery is not something to simply be dismissed.
I don’t claim to have the answer here, but it is on my mind.
As US carriers clamor for protections against foreign competitors utilizing Russian airspace, I do wonder what approach the US should take and whether it is time to up the ante in hopes of bringing pain to Russia and more quickly ending the war there. As a recovering neocon, I certainly don’t want to go down the Iraq War path again, but I also do not see any end in sight (potentially for years) to the current stalemate…and US airlines are part of this battle too.
What are your thoughts on this issue?
image: Official White House Photo by David Lienemann
Would the taxpayers have shouldered less of a burden if all those employees went on the juiced unemployment program? What would airline operations or airfares look like today if airlines had to layoff tons of pilots who may not have returned to work at the bottom of the seniority list?
That aside, I don’t think it’s fair to dictate how airlines choose to operate their flights. Russian overflight fees are a source of income, but is it really much in the grand scheme of things compared to the amount of money they receive from selling oil to India or China? How about punishing those countries by not allowing nonstop flights to the US? Or imposing a fee for flights utilizing russian airspace so that they don’t pollute the earth any further flying across europe instead.
Isolate Russia? Lulz. That went out the window when Europe made themselves dependent on Russia for energy. This is silly.
Also, there is far more to the story behind this that you completely gloss over using media buzzwords. We shouldn’t be doing anything here. Ukraine is a corrupt hellhole and Russia is no better. Let them duke it out and keep us out of it. Financially, and militarily.
Blah, blah, blah.
Look beyond self-affirming sources for your news. Follow the money.
Matthew, Can we have a conversation without bias, especially when you bring politics. it goes south.
Nope. Politics are the new religionTM for the Matt types.
We cannot escape from bias. We can discuss facts and push back against misinformation, however it is labeled.
Lol. Right wing? Give me a break, dude. I’m an anarchist. I don’t subscribe to your silly politics. However, when you regurgitate stuff like “war of aggression”, it shows either you don’t care about the backstory, or don’t know about it. Anyway, I don’t really care. You want to follow the money? WHO THE F is getting paid for all these munitions? Yeah, follow the money. Please.
Or that I have a different perspective than you; an informed one. Not one based upon the lies you are fed. You’ll say the irony is rich, but I pity your state of confusion.
@Brandon Ah, so you’re a right wing anarchist. Got it.
Hahaha, lies I have been fed? What lies might those be, exactly? This should be good. I guess the US didn’t back the forces in 2014 to create a regime change in the region? I guess the US/Nato didn’t repeatedly cross all the “red-lines” russia set forth, including, but not limited too, Minsk treaty violations? Ah yes, the man who claimed the airlines were perfectly in the clear on mask mandates without an individual assessment weren’t violating the ACAA is most definitely correct here. Oh please, wise obi won, tell me where I am wrong? Where I lied? Give me a break. you are just a typical partisan who can’t hole a consistent belief. IE, WAR IS BAD. Period.
@stuart, the fact of being an anarchist makes one “left” on the bs scale. I know it’s hard to fathom, we were the original “liberals”. Then again, words have been changed over the years to mean things they didn’t originally. But please continue.
Oh, so you are the guy that broke all those windows in Portland, Oregon .
@Brandon: The Ukrainian Revolution was in disgust to Yanukovych’s decision to align with Moscow instead of pursuing a closer relationship with the EU as well as disgust over the corruption and brutality of the administration. It was a popular uprising, not a US coup. You think the unanimous Parliamentary vote to remove Yanukovych from power was simply the US pulling the puppet strings? On what basis?
stfu, brandon is right
Flying over Russia is he most direct route to many places. Since climate change s the #1 priority, all airline should be required to fly the most direct route. Problem solved. planet saved. Although I understand we only have a few years left anyway.
Yup, we will likely cease to exist as a species by 2050. That’s what the teevee told me, anyway.
Libertarians (and “neo-Anarchists”) are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don’t appreciate or understand.
Says the one who has never met an “anarchist”. I assure you, I am not dependent on any State aid. Furthermore, before you whine about the “roads”….. It’s called user fees, aka tolls. Funny how little your kind actually knows about us. Then again, that doesn’t stop you from spreading false information using the appeal to authority you so desire.
All the more reason to fly foreign carriers when going overseas.
The author naively believes that stopping a few flights over Russia is going to end the war in Ukraine. LOL.
Nick failed to read the article carefully and draw the clear implication that a “you’re with us or against us” policy goes far beyond Russian airspace.
It really is. I’m certain that will stop them. Hell, blowing up the pipeline didn’t stop them, not sure how he figures missing russia airspace will change things.
If India, Israel, Turkey, and the UAE are forced to choose between the USA/Europe or Russia to do business with, who will they choose?
They will use middlemen to get what they need, just as happened with oil and natural gas.
We can all agree that that this was is unjust, but so was the US war against Iraq and Vietman, and the covert overthrow of the democratic governments of Guatemala and Iran and god knows how many other places (mainstrean facts – check wikipedia not conspiracy theories). How about writing about an embargo against USA first? Or if you’re fine with double standards in politics, then how about just helping the people of Syria who are by all accounts way way worse of than those in Ukraine.
The only reason the US cares about Ukraine is about power politics.. let’s not be niave here. And do we really expect all the countries of the world to suddenly line up from a sense of right and wrong when the same rules are not applied to other conflicts and regions and ethnicities?
The only reason the US cares about Ukraine is power politics? I thought it was because Ukraine was INVADED by a hostile foreign power and Ukraine borders NATO…
As for Syria, I’m all for rebuilding that country and have long viewed the Assad regime as the lesser of two evils.
And yes, I view the Vietnam and Iraq wars as criminal.
That’s exactly it. Maybe you should spend more time reading and less time spreading false information.
Perhaps you should go to Ukraine and talk to the people who have been besieged, like I have. It’s not make-believe.
Who said anything about “make believe”? Please, point to my words. I didn’t deny the war was happening, etc. I stated a fact that we shouldn’t be involved. I showed this was partly/largely driven by the US/NATO.
Also, you went there specifically to confirm your bias. Maybe you should have visited Russia for a more balanced approach? Or the east where the land (people) are being fought for. I honestly don’t really care if you agree, but there is far more nuance than you admit in your description of the “Russian war of aggression”. To use an analogy, I guess the civil war was the “war of northern aggression” to you? If you are ideologically consistent you don’t get to say “war is bad” for one group and “good” for another. All war is bad. We are helping to fund that war.
Lastly, if Ukraine were 100% in the right here, why is Zelensky banning opposition parties? Isn’t that the very definition of “un-democratic”?
Matthew, just wondering on what you base the “Russians feel very little pain” statement? What I hear from friends in Russia is that it has been steadily getting more and more difficult with shortages, higher prices, feelings of insecurity etc.
But then surely the target is not the average Russian, many of whom have taken advantage of being able to go to the Gulf, Sri Lanka etc to avoid being drafted or harassed for anti-war sentiments. The political elite, who surely are the target, won’t care.
Really, Dougie? All over Asia in January, at some of the most exclusive resorts, were mobs of Russians in Chanel and carrying their bags and bags of luxury items into the hotels from shopping. They are not suffering. Believe me. They are laughing at us. Take away their ability to easily leave Russia on a plane, other than to say China and a few other countries, and only then will they feel any pain.
Hi Stuart. Yes, really. I live in Sri Lanka and I too see lots of Russian visitors, though they tend to come less for the shopping and more for the beaches. Some clearly have money, others much less so. During the draft, some were candidly saying they are staying as long as possible so as not to get drafted. They don”t appear to be the ones with big money who – as you said – would otherwise fly via China or other countries.
My main question though was on what basis Matthew was saying that Russians are feeling “very little pain” because people I talk to in Russia have been less positive.
All in. If US cannot use Russian airspace we should insist those airlines that use Russian airspace to go elsewhere or abide to the same restrictions. Countries that continue to straddle the fence, using the restrictions to their own advantage are not welcome. And to US citizens that use those carriers should be aware what a diversion over Russian airspace will mean to your future. Nothing good. And yeah it going to cost us and yeah it could go on forever. Freedom comes at a price
Exactly. If U.S. citizens are on a flight that diverts within Russia (or is directed to land aka Ryanair in Belarus), they might not like the result.
A very balanced take on the subject, Matthew. I appreciate that you have clearly shown the most important aspect of this in that it’s NOT about the other airlines attracting more customers due to the lesser flight time (though I imagine that can have some affect) but IS about operating costs and how U.S. carriers are unfairly having to operate the same route at much higher costs due to the ban on Russian airspace. There is nothing to lose here for us, and U.S. airlines should not be punished when there is a very easy solution.
Enough already, I am tired of countries like Turkey, UAE, India and others playing both sides and reaping the profits from it. It’s time that they either take a side against a brutal attack on a sovereign nation, and the massacre of innocent people, or suffer along with Russia. This is not a time for diplomacy. This is a time to go, as Matthew said, all-in or else we are simply prolonging the entire war to be years.
I would even suggest going further in Biden banning any airline that serves Russian markets. The heck with it. No more pussyfooting around with half baked sanctions. There will be pain, of course, Chinese cargo flights being banned would result in fairly significant shortages of tech shipments, but we will survive. It’s time to take this to the Russian people as well so as to send a message that you can’t run off to beaches in Thailand and Dubai (I’m shocked how I’m seeing them everywhere at resorts across the world. The Shangri La in Boracay was basically Little Moscow in January) and go on your monthly shoppings sprees overseas while you turn a blind eye to the eradication of an entire nation and people. Until the people feel the pain, Putin won’t. A perfect example being how quickly Xi backed down to remove Covid restrictions when the Chinese protests started to gain steam across the country.
The final step should also be banning the airlines of any nation that allows Russian carriers to fly there. The goal in to completely isolate Russia, it’s people, until they finally have enough, rise up and begin to dissent in mass. Nothing will get Putin to rethink his butchery quicker than 100K angry Russians waiving their empty Gucci bags on Red Square.
I was against the war in Iraq. I laughed at Bush Jr. when he said, “You are either with us or against us.” However, this quote right now, to me, is a perfect statement as to going forward.
Did you feel the same way about Iraq and Syria? Both were sovereign nations with “innocent” civilians. The U.S. government invaded two sovereign nations and killed millions of civilians.
The people of the Donbas declared independence and became sovereign nation when the U.S. government backed coup overthrew a democratically elected Ukrainian President in 2014. Are you one of those who would be on the side of the British in saying America or India could not declare independence? Are you on the side of the French in Algeria or Vietnam? 4 regions in eastern ukraine voted for independence in the late summer. Are they not entitled to freedom? Donbas has been shelled for 9 years and tens of thousands of civilians killed before 2022 so complaining about “innocent” civilians in Ukraine does not carry much weight.
Russia is defending people who don’t want lgbt propaganda in pre-schools and don’t want what the west has turned into. The western globalists want Ukraine so they can launder their 500 billion annually like Biden’s family did and use Ukraine to destabilize Russia. Russia is absolutely nothing close to perfect but it is much better than the crap going on in the west.
What a fantasy world you live in. But I’m not silencing you…
Other than the last paragraph, where was/is he wrong? Exactly? You seem to keep saying everyone else being “fed lies” or “living in a fantasy land” without offering anything of actual substance. So, what did he lie about in the second paragraph, specifically.
I absolutely feel the same about Iraq. I said exactly that if you read my comment completely. However, these are hardly comparable. First off, Iraq was being run by a regionally destabilizing dictator who had, just a few years before, invaded and occupied an innocent neighboring country. While I did not support going into Iraq with guns blazing, at the very least Hussein was a leader who did eventually need to go and had committed significant crimes against his own people and those of Kuwait. But this could have been done differently for sure.
As to Syria, this is, again, hardly so black and white as Putin invading Ukraine. The U.S. was not involved in eradicating an entire people and culture and claiming the territory as theirs. This was about human rights and the internal war that involved the gassing and torture of innocent people.
Please spare me your comparisons. These are only valid if you actually believe Putin and his lies about “saving the poor Ukrainian people.” His goal is very simple: To cleanse an entire people from its homeland and force them into submission, unwillingly, to be Russian. And he won’t stop there.
There are no lies to believe. It’s been well known and documented for the last almost 10 years since the crimea annexation.
You mean “well documented” on your right wing conspiracy sites? And I love how you all now run to the term “anarchist” these days. Ever since January 6th you’;ve all rebranded yourself trying to seem more cozy and welcoming to the young folk and not like the mob of loonies we saw that day. Maybe it’s so you can actually get a date for once, “No no No, we are not right wing, we are anarchists, the original left wing, come on over and have tea and we can hang out with all the cool kids together online. They will sooo help you to see that Ukrainians are really bad people because, ya know, Putin said so. Oh, and I have no money so could you actually pick up that tea for us?”
Go figure, I post actual links to my back up my assertions and it goes into moderation.
Oh, and @ Stewie, I have been an anarchist since 2007. So bite me and your non-sensical false outrage over a bunch of cosplay boomers “literally almost toppling the worlds bestest democracy”, reeee. Prior to that, I was a Ron Paul supporter. I haven’t voted since he lost the primary.
uh huh, I believe you, Brandon. Rebrand yourself all you want, you’re still a right wing lunatic who can’t get a date. Pretty simple.
Oh the irony. Poor stuwie. I guess “forbes” is right-wing “conspiracy” now? https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/05/19/why-everything-youve-read-about-ukraine-is-wrong/?sh=4f7462c6510e
Yeah, you’re right. I only visit vast conspiracy sites that confirm my “white wing wacism”. Oh, wait.
Or, how about GWU? Is that “white wing wacism”? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
Learn something, or just make yourself look like the partisan tool you are. I’m sure you will follow-up with something from the atlantic or WAPO and claim it as 100% fact when it’s long been demonstrated they are no better than the onion for actual historical events.
I do see your vailed hints at “incel” (despite the fact I’m engaged and she knows my beliefs, but doesn’t agree), cute. Then claim I’m a loaner, etc. Because you have no actual basis of fact to discuss. Congrats. I’m sure this is just your projection because the “email lady” lost.
Every country does not have the same interest in the Ukraine war like the Western Countries, so why should Turkey care about the interest of the USA? Also, this about is protectionism. It isn’t about ending the war. These are the same airlines arguing that only one pilot is needed in the cockpit is needed, even when the Germanwings crash showed that this is a bad idea.
That’s fine. They can choose to take that position. In the meantime their airlines are not welcome in the U.S. Pretty simple.
Hear hear, Matthew.
I too am a free-trade enthusiast; however, desperate times call for desperate measures, etc. We need to stop the Russian brutality against ukraine as quickly as possible. And the US airlines objectively *are* at a disadvantage compared to other competitors who have parked their morals and continue to use Russian airspace…
Just briefly though, might you consider rephrasing your comment that you are a ‘supporter’ of the Assad regime. There is a difference between recognizing that it might be the best option out of a very bad list, and actively ‘supporting’ it (I need not remind you that it has used chemical weapons against its own people…)
Do we want federal government travelers from NYC forced to fly CX to HKG? Currently (FY23) the GSA contracts between HKG and LAX/SFO/JFK all belong to AA, essentially CX. But CX made its choice for JFK-HKG and dropped the AA code. If an airspace ban is enforced, CX gets the business again.
As a former DTS user based in Asia, I would have LOVED to be forced to fly CX over AA or UA. I think you overestimate the quality of the US3 compared to many of their Asian counterparts/JVs.
As much as American airlines say it a competitive disadvantage, historically they have not served the Indian subcontinent or the middle East well at all. There has always been demand and airlines from the middle East and India have filled those gaps, so why stop them now. Taking away service now would just leave consumers in a worse off postion.
I did not quite understand why you travelled to Kyiv in the middle of the war. Read something about buying a painting from a local artist; but nothing that sounded convincing or important enough to warrant travelling to a warzone. Are you part of the White House Social Media Outreach group ?
Can someone identify a military conflict that has ever been stopped or “won” by economic trade policy? No? But surely it’s different this time? The only difference between Vietnam and Ukraine is the absence of American citizens in the crossfire. Proxy wars promoted by generals spouting off fear of the domino theory were massively destructive to large swathes of humanity around the global in the 1970s and ultimately weakened American economic welfare and spiritual/moral health . I see absolutely no reason it will be different this time. Doubling down to “win” feels almost certain to be hollow glory.
You make some valid points from an historic standpoint, but times have changed. And this is an unprecedented moment not seen since, maybe, WW2. This is not a civil war, as many seem to be now, but rather a conquest in an attempt to exterminate and colonize an entire fee nation.
The world is a very different place since WW2. Or even Vietnam. Imagine Vietnam in the age of a global economy that had actually developed a middle class, had prosperity beyond just a few, and was connected on the Internet. The result would have been much different. It’s no wonder Xi backed down so fast when people in China began to get restless and protests were arising regarding Covid restrictions.
As such I tend to disagree with you at this point that going all in on sanctions and bans, even for those profiting from Russia, will not work. First off in that I know Russians well in regards to consumerism from my selling luxury goods there for two decades. There is no country (perhaps other than China) that is so obsessed and in love with the luxury consumer lifestyle. They have been revenge shopping and traveling for nearly 30 years now. People imagine Russians to be this resilient agri focused nation that is prepared to withstand sieges like in WW2. Nope, sorry they are not, and they all have smart phones and ways to access Instagram and others. Alienate them from the world and their ability to shop in Dubai and the uprising starts.
Oh, and should you stop to think, well, they are feeling pain from current sanctions, they are not. Trust me. SE Asia luxury properties were flooded with Russians when I was moving around in January there and the bags of luxury goods being carried in and out were mind-boggling. This is their back door to it and they don’t care because of it.
As another example to counter your idea that these techniques don’t work, look what Putin did to our own country with just a small army of secret trolls stationed in Africa who worked clandestine to undermine our democracy. And that was amateur at best. Imagine if we went all in, took the fight in another modern way, that is, deprive the Russian women of trips to Dubai and their new Chanel releases, well, you can bet things will get serious fast.
I agree with you, Miami, from an historical standpoint. But the world is a vastly different place now. And this is not a civil war. Going all in economically and completely isolating and bringing true pain to the people there is the one weapon we have short of sending in 100K Nato troops to begin what we know, at this point, will result in.
The question is, from an existential standpoint, which technique do you prefer? Bringing pain to the Russian people so as to get them to open their eyes and heart? Or bring pain to our own families as we send troops to die to defend what will otherwise be a completely new world order if Putin takes Ukraine?
So Stuart, why the failure and hypocrisy then on behalf of the Biden Administration, why do they keep lying to us insisting the sanctions are working and that it’s just a matter of time before they kick in, just wait and see, you’ll see, blah blah blah. Meanwhile Russia is forging this no holds barred alliance with China that’ll help them offset any pain from the current sanctions in no time. Hypocrisy much? So please explain who is lying with all this false propaganda stuff??
I am in full agreement. The sanctions as they are are not enough – and we are failing. Go big. It’s time. You have no argument from me. The time for pussyfooting is over. Especially in relation to the countries who choose to play both sides. I say extend strategic sanctions to them as well, like India. It’s time to force a complete isolation of Russia. Fine, China will never relent, but the reality is that the two of them alone will make for very strange bedfellows and the Chinese people, like the Russian people, will quickly tire of their alliance sans Louis Vuitton. Our pain will be much less. Countries like Turkey and India will relent and come to the side of right. It’s time to play hard, and the next step is those that enable Russia by playing both sides.
@miamiorbust “a conflict that was won by economic sanctions” American Civil War. Union early on blocked ports to the south. South could not export cotton. The funds for arms dried up, other countries found cotton elsewhere. South in poverty, union moved south won the war.
Since its peak of 60 to one dollar,the ruble is trading downwards of about 30% today.Russia is having trouble securing aircraft parts and other machinery for routine maintenance ,affected by global sanctions,in addition to all the monetary restrictions,,freezes,and seizures of assets.The USA recently resumed deportations of Russians,while countries like Bali are suspending visa on arrival for Russians.A major recipient,in fact the leader,in USA foreign aid,Israel definitely should be more in line with USA foreign policy.Turkey being in NATO might seem like a wild card,but it’s advantageous actually to have a member who can serve as liaison of sorts,they are anything but soft on Russia.Remember several years ago when Obama buckled to the Russians over Syria,Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet that entered it’s air space.
100% agree with your sentiment Matt. It is complex. I’ve never been a huge fan of sanctions because they rarely produce change in policy. Yet, if we are going to use them there needs to be zero exceptions or loopholes.
Anyone doing business with Russia should be excluded from doing business with the US, EU, Japan, etc. Otherwise don’t bother. Half measures don’t produce half results. They produce no results.
Matthew is living in a fantasy land. He absorbs misinformation. Maybe he should move beyond left wing sources. See? I can belch tired cliches like Matt too!
I feel for the people of Ukraine who were just minding their own damn business and living their lives before all this shit happened but the burden of ending this war and negotiating peace is on Europeans. Fortunately, EU members finally realized (in a limited way) that they have to bear responsibility for defending their borders and dealing with their violent neighbors and slightly increased their defense spending in response to the conflict.
I’m tired of being the world’s police, as if we learned nothing from Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. If you want to personally support refugees or go over there and fight, you have my support. Don’t compel people who do not consent.
So when a sovereign country is invaded, we are just supposed to say, “Good luck guys!” ?
That’s a bit different than the US invading Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq (in 2003), wouldn’t you say? The Ukrainians are not the invaders. This isn’t aggression…and you refer to Europe as if it is a block, when the more logical block implicated by Russia’s aggression is NATO.
It wasn’t Ukraine that invaded Western Russia…and history shows the peril of turning a blind eye while the strong eat the weak.
You completely contradict yourself here. This a police effort. It is the very diffintion of a “police effort”.
“the civil force of a national or local government, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order.
“when someone is killed, the police have to be informed”
(of a police force) have the duty of maintaining law and order in or for (an area or event).”
Those others were more nation building on our part, this is, allegedly, enforcing Ukraine’s “sovereign borders”, which puts it squarely in our/NATO’s court as policing the two countries.
You didn’t actually address my comment. Try again?
What exactly didn’t I address? You claimed this wasn’t a police action, which it very much is the definition of. To answer your question, yes. We should tell Ukraine, good luck you guys, wish you the best. It is not our job to enforce world borders. It is not our place to topple sovereign states (Iraq).
I assume your “turning a blind eye” was in reference to the nazi expansion? As if the two situations are remotely similar.
Finally, shouldn’t it be up to the people in the region to decide where they want to live?
“The results of the separatist referendums were not officially recognised by any government, including those of Ukraine, the United States, and the countries of the European Union The Ukrainian government said that the referendum was illegal, and a number of nations—such as Germany, the United States, France, and Britain—said that the referendum was unconstitutional and lacked legitimacy. The Russian government expressed “respect” for the results and urged a “civilised” implementation, and later announced recognition of the republics on 21 February 2022, becoming the first UN member state to do so.” (Per wiki)
Seems like there is a clear desire to separate from Ukraine on the part of these area’s.