Qantas, the Australian flag carrier, announced this week that they would require all travelers on its flights to have a COVID-19 vaccine. A move that would surely be Qantas’ undoing.
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Qantas Makes an Announcement
The Australian flag carrier, Qantas, announced this week that in 2021, the airline would require passengers to demonstrate they have received one of the coronavirus vaccines. While Australia as a country has indicated mixed recommendations regarding mandatory vaccination as an entry requirement, Qantas has made its position clear, “no jab, no fly.”
Much of The Global Community Rejects Vaccine Conceptually
Despite efforts to curb the spread of the virus globally, few nations have been successful. One of those nations has been Australia who shares a travel bubble with like-minded neighbor New Zealand.
The current policy for entering Australia solely allows for a mandatory 14-day quarantine with no waivers for Australian nationals nor international visitors. Digital health passes have also been floated but are essentially just proof that a vaccine has been administered and will not encourage those that are leery of the vaccines in development.
While the International Air Transport Association (IATA) is trying to restart travel through a series of Covid-19 testing protocols (up to three), but has also embraced Australia’s approach. They recognize that border restrictions are unsustainable for their business – international travel – for the long term.
In Australia, there’s more support for the vaccine than in the US but resistance is a “significant” part of the picture. The Australian National University found a “high level” of hesitancy to the remedies with 13% highly unlikely to get a vaccine for COVID-19 while and further 28% have said they probably will but can’t be sure. Just over half (58%) have stated they will almost certainly get the vaccine (despite not knowing which of the five candidate medicines will be chosen, nor the potential side effects or efficacy.)
Between 34-67% of all Americans (depending on the poll) indicated skepticism or outright rejection of taking a vaccine for the virus. It doesn’t fall along party lines either. Notably, Vice President-elect Harris has said she would be unlikely to take a vaccine developed under President Trump’s administration. She’s not alone, 49% of black Americans are uninterested taking the vaccine.
For those that have expressed their hesitation, it’s not as political as one might think,
“Usually when something comes out for the first time, it’s not exactly right,” said Bell. “And of course, me being Black, you know, you get the flashbacks to what they did to the Black people back in the ’20s, ’30s,’40s. How they used them as guinea pigs.”
A separate poll found a nearly identical sentiment:
“I don’t plan on being anyone’s guinea pig,” said Ebony Dew, an independent from Capitol Heights, Maryland. “I don’t plan on getting it at all.” She continued ““I feel like their testing is a trial and error,” Dew said. “And I also feel that they don’t really know all that much about this virus, so how can they create a cure for it just yet?”
Rather than solely conservatives who doubt the veracity of the information given about the virus, it’s Democrats that indicated hesitation based on the rush basis of the vaccine.
“The poll of 1,000 voters follows similar surveys in the past month that indicate as many as one-third of Americans would decline a vaccine, fueled by mistrust of the Trump administration’s push to speed up its development as well as a sizable slice of the country that generally opposes immunizations of any kind.”
Many vaccines have side effects which can range from mild to severe, but the quick development (most vaccines take from 8-12 years to develop and vet vs. 10 months in the case of the current three) is cause for concerns on both sides of the aisle.
The American reaction is key not just as part of Qantas market (the US is one of their most lucrative destinations) but also because it demonstrates hesitation outside of the Oceania region. No other carrier has taken the same bold move including like-minded (and travel bubble buddy) Air New Zealand.
That’s a problem for Qantas and carriers like it.
Why This Would Be, Could Be The End of Qantas
As an airline, the carrier can be altruistic, as a business it cannot. In 2019 Qantas posted a gross revenue of $17.97bn AUD and pre-tax profits of $1.27bn AUD or about 7%. It’s worth noting that 2019 was peak travel and is unlikely to be matched in 2021 even if the virus becomes completely vanquished from the world simply because businesses will travel less. Consumers will also have less discretionary money, eliminating air traveling from many household budgets.
But that’s not going to be the case no matter what happens. Even if the vaccine is widely available, many won’t take it and consumers have gotten on without flying Qantas this year, they will be able to do it in 2021 too.
There’s simply too few people that are willing to take the vaccine in the near future, some, perhaps ever. There’s also a contingent of the population that will still be reluctant to travel despite a vaccine, rigorous testing, or the overall subsiding of the virus. That’s simply far too many customers for Qantas to exclude
One travel agency in the UK said this in response to Qantas’ announcement:
We have made a company decision today to not sell any @Qantas flights, even on a code share, following their announcement of no vaccination, no flight. There are far superior airlines with flights to #Australia
— Tradewinds Travel (@UKTwinds) November 23, 2020
Qantas simply doesn’t have the luxury of choosing which of its customers it will continue to serve. The carrier isn’t profitable enough for those choices – none of them were even pre-pandemic.
As the agency pointed out, there’s no shortage of carriers to Australia, and should the country mandate proof of inoculation, it’s likely tourism will drop rather than all travelers agreeing to take a vaccine out of an innate desire to surf Bondi beach.
Why It Won’t Be
Since support for the agency in UK began showing up on Twitter, IATA distanced itself from its initial backing of the move. Agencies like IATA, airlines like Qantas – every business in the travel sector is seeking any path to resume business as usual. Talking to my colleagues in other airlines, it seems unlikely they will alienate any portion of their remaining customer base.
If Qantas had the temerity to enforce such terms and conditions on its clientele, they would most certainly exclude themselves from some portion of the market and create a position from which the airline would not recover. If the country were to require vaccination, that would help level the playing field against other carriers offering flights to Australia without a vaccination requirement.
But it won’t come to that either. Qantas may be able to socially distance itself from customers and profits for some time, but Australia relies heavily on overseas business and won’t be able to close itself off indefinitely.
Qantas won’t be able to hold onto an optional restriction at the risk of the business shutting down. The company has shareholders and employees along with vendors that all depend on its survival. The Australian government is also unlikely to let the airline fail, just as US airlines have seen support from taxpayers.
Conclusion
It’s possible that Qantas is trying to secure a first-mover advantage of leading the way for all airlines going forward. It could be a case of trying to work in lockstep with the Australian government and form a unified front. It could also be as simple as virtue-signaling to a sympathetic audience. I believe that Qantas genuinely believes in protecting the passengers aboard its aircraft and the best way the carrier sees to protect the people who fly is by requiring a vaccine. But unless Australia mandates such a requirement, Qantas is not well-positioned to help rebuild its embattled business. If the country does mandate such a requirement, then Qantas has no advantage over any other carrier flying to, from, and within the continent. Other than demonstrating their forward approach, the movement can only hurt the carrier.
What do you think? Would mandating a vaccinated customer base kill the airline? Will Qantas recant its position? Should others follow its lead?
This is a very one-sided story.
How about using the vaccine requirement as a marketing tool? Those who are willing to take the vaccine are also going to seek out carriers that require everyone to be vaccinated, because of the safety that brings with it (as no vaccine is 100% effective, flying with only vaccinated people will still be safer even for vaccinated persons).
Also, the use of population-level statistics in the story is misleading. The important statistic is how many frequent flyers are willing to take a vaccine.
@T – Thank you for reading and for your comment. I actually addressed this as a marketing tool both in this quote, “secure a first-mover advantage of leading the way for all airlines going forward” meaning a first-mover advantage in marketing and also when I stated “virtue-signaling” because many will fly because of that virtue they’ve signaled.
I completely agree that some may choose to fly carriers where this is the case and address that too, but that margins aren’t high enough even in the best of times to exclude 13-41% of the available market. By making it a requirement with 13% definitely not doing it, they might be able to overcome that but the 40% number in Australia that show “high resistance” as the cited Australian article put it, is in line with US hesitancy that crosses political boundaries (also demonstrated in the post.) There’s no way that Qantas, specifically because of its geolocation, could shrink small enough to remain a going concern with that kind of self-induced headwind.
You are not old enough to remember when Northwest was the first airline to ban smoking on all domestic flights. At the time some 32% of the country smoked. Many argued exactly as you are…they are not going to survive with shutting out 32% of potential ticket buyers. Yes, smokers chose other airlines that did not fully ban it on flights over 3 hours. But, NW also saw such a strong response from non smokers choosing it for flights that, eventually, all the airlines followed suit. As will be the case here.
You are right Stuart, I was not old enough to remember when Northwest banned smoking on all flights but I do remember sitting near the smoking section on a flight from Denver to Omaha (UA 727 for those interested.) And you make a valid point, one I can’t entirely dispute.
However, Matthew has railed against airports for not keeping smoking lounges and outlets for smokers and he is the most anti-smoker there is. If there is no outlet, one will be created, thus the numerous times and ways people who smoke but have no access to a safe and legal way to do it find an illegal and dangerous way instead. And to that point, some of our most consistent daily views on this blog are people who are searching for places to smoke in airports around the world – at least one of which is in the top ten. Every. Single. Day.
You finally got to the right answer in the conclusion: virtue signalling. Once effective vaccinations are widely available then this virus will run its course, no policy will be necessary.
What a misinformed and fear mongering story.
I believe the US will continue to be a hotspot for this virus for quite a long time and the global reaction to that will be to treat it as a dangerous location.
I think we should all be planning to dust off our old yellow vaccination forms when traveling from this disease ridden failed state.
We should require that frequent flyer bloggers get the vaccine in order to be allowed to continue publishing. No posts for you until you get both COVID shots.
Agreed overall. This requirement will vanish soon enough. In the interim, I think it makes sense.
Qantas is just an example of how single minded Australia is. The country is bleeding with their ridiculous lockdown. There are ways to protect its citizens but keep the country running. Nobody will want to go there.
Some will, just not enough in my opinion.
What a joke. People are enjoying the Australian summer, hotels and restaurants are filling, up.
Would you prefer to sit next someone who’s taken a flu shot or a flu antigen test? It’s less likely the one with flu shot will get or spread the flu, still possible but less likely. Same will be with a successful covid vaccine (whenever one or multiples are actually approved and readily available). On your comments about under which US administration it’s developed impacts people’s decisions I have to say folks with those concerns aren’t well informed of how the process works and how little influence politicians actually have over corporate R&D and clinical trials etc. Putting greed aside corporations usually learn pretty quickly that an inferior product costs more than proper development. I guess there is a conspiracy theory for every taste out there. Anyway Pfizer and it’s German partner didn’t take US funding. I seriously doubt the others working on vaccine development with or without government funding will let someone as scientifically clueless as Donald direct the research. If these vaccines are successful I wouldn’t be surprised if governments started to require them for entry. It wouldn’t be the first that happened.
No where in Australia is in a lock down though? Aussies are out travelling and spending in our own country supporting small local businesses.
Very one-sided story. Do you even know, why it took 5-10 years to develop vaccines until Covid19? Not because of extensive testing, but because of (lack of) finances. With Covid19, financing was available in record levels, and as result, vaccine developers were able to do all three phases in record times. This doesn’t mean that testing was not done as it is required. I would personally prefer to fly with airlines that would demand passengers to get vaccine.
I don’t doubt you might choose airlines who require vaccination, many will. But profits aren’t large enough to overcome those who are not currently open to a vaccine. That’s my point.
I completely agree. The world has 7 billion peope. We can afford to lose peope but not jobs or wealth.
I say we keep the economy open. Anyone gets sick, we just shoot them and give the job to the next person. This is a free market capitalism. Time we started acting like it. The weak shall perish so the society can get better.
The announcement is only for international flights. Presser says qantas will not require it domestically.
Australian government has announced vaccination will be a requirement for international arrivals to be able to enter Australia, including for Australian citizens. So qantas really didn’t announce anything new- you can’t take an international flights into Australia without vaccination anyways. I guess if you wanted a one way ticket out, you can fly another airline.
I pay for J, flew it twice with Qantas in 2020.
Will not give them my money with a requirement like this.
I will not get a vaccine, and I’m not supporting any business that engages in political health theater like this.
Disgusting behavior from Qantas.
Such elitism, such virtue signaling garbage.
Exactly why I WILL fly Qantas or any airline that requires it. To avoid people like you that ignorantly refuse to take a perfectly safe vaccine that will stop a pandemic that could kill millions worldwide.
They will all require it, so I hope you enjoy driving. Or flying Allegiant, lol.
Dean, Please do exercise your right and stick to other people like yourself who will refuse science.
“ignorantly refuse to take a perfectly safe vaccine”
What an ignorant, hysterical statement. There currently is NO perfectly safe vaccine. If it was perfectly safe then why do the vaccine manufacturers get immunity from lawsuits due to potential side effects?
I am earnestly praying that they will produce a safe vaccine very soon, but we have no idea how long it will take to actually create one where 99% of the recipients are guaranteed to not experience serious side effects.
Because we all have different DNA, there is no way to create any medicine or vaccine that is perfectly safe for every human being.
Oh dear. Vaccines are safe. Of course the rabid anti vax / pro death crowd would rather drink their own pee
You addressed none of what Harold said… instead you spouted BuzzFeed talking points back at him, with no actual substance.
Great – we can all fly Qantas safe in the knowledge that ignorant arseholes like Dean won’t be on board!
More hysteria
You really need to re read, proofread, and have people edit your pieces before you hit publish. I tried reading this and there were so many typos and missing words that it was nauseating and I couldn’t finish reading your lengthy uninformed rant.
But you had time to comment so…
Because I see you have potential and believe you can and should do better
How much rubbish are you capable of writing in a day?
A vaccine is so obviously the only way out of this crisis. If it is proven to be safe, obviously countries will require it. Seems to obvious to even have to articulate.
To your question, I have three posts going live today so the answer is at least three, but I am always up for a stretch goal.
To your second point, there are some leaks in that boat. First, a vaccine is not an obvious solution for a few reasons, one of them being the ineffectiveness of some vaccines, another being the unknown side effects, and still further the possibility that COVID-19 may not go away even with a vaccine and mutate much like the flu, which has a vaccine every year with questionable efficacy varying on strand and participation. Second, “if it is proven to be safe” is really the hard part, isn’t it? How can you prove a rushed vaccine to be safe? Even Astra-Zeneca who came out with their miracle 90% effective drug days after the election has since recanted results and is re-examining the drug. That’s the point, there are some serious unknowns and Qantas is stating they will require it before the government, yet another leak in the argument.
As I stated in the post, “If the country does mandate such a requirement, then Qantas has no advantage over any other carrier.” But countries don’t currently require a vaccine against a number of diseases so it’s not clear this will definitely make the list, especially as the virus becomes less and less lethal by the week. Look at countries that closed themselves off to outsiders without a negative COVID-19 test that have changed their stance because they cannot, will not, or do not want to maintain it.
“ineffectiveness of some vaccines” — willful misrepresentation, we have at least two vaccines with 90-95% efficacy
“how can you prove a rushed vaccine” — this is the kind of thing that is really harmful right now. You are within your rights to say whatever the hell you want, but by undermining vaccines (all of which have been proven to be 100% safe) you could cause well-meaning people with concerns to pause and refrain from getting it, slowing down a much-needed economic recovery. My own relatives are covid-crazy (locking themselves up and refusing to see people even masked and outside) and are buying some of the vaccine fear mongering.
As for your final point, it’s highly likely Australia will mandate this, along with most civilized places for the foreseeable future (until COVID is basically out of widespread transmission, in, say 2023-4).
I get that the past nine months have been highly frustrating and am sorry (you clearly are angry). Like the rest of us you are stuck at home and probably find it fun to get such reactions from people. But honestly your writing regarding the vaccines is deeply irresponsible, potentially destructive, and willfully misleading.
Matt – Speaking of misrepresentations, some of your information is dated and flawed. The AZ version which was mis-dosed only achieved that number by giving a smaller does then larger. The efficacy of taking as prescribed was 64%, not 90% – at least according to NPR. https://n.pr/3fLxcrq
It’s not harmful to ask how one can possibly know the lasting effects of a medicine when there have not been lasting studies. There couldn’t be, it was just invented. You said “all of which have been proven 100% safe” which is 100% false (speaking of misrepresentations.) The trials have all been stopped at some point in the process due to side effects, here’s an article about that from CNN: https://cnn.it/3ljdeFP.
We agree that Australia is likely to mandate. I write that they may do so in the post and as it pertains to travel, that would take away any benefit for Qantas of promoting themselves as “no jab-no fly.”
If you think the comment section is fun, we have different ideas of what is entertaining. However, I believe deeply that if you’re going to say something on the internet, say it in a way that is public (no screen names for me) and back it up after it has been said. Plenty will write what I have with less citations and never address the comments section, that’s their choice, but don’t misinterpret my engagement as joy nor if I don’t address every single comment as a concession. We are all out here just doing our best, right?
To the last little parting shot, I have identified in this comment and others both from yourself and others on the thread the “willful” ignorance of information I have accurately and equally represented. You can determine whatever you want, as I can say whatever I want (so can you in the comments) but if you ignore the parts you don’t like, it doesn’t make my argument different, just your chosen interpretation.
Thanks for posting a very good response to Matt and his garbage comments that are based on wishful thinking and without clear scientific support.
@Harold
No problem
@Kyle
I had a break from the nonsense this evening but feel compelled to correct you yet again. In order:
1. Both Moderna and Pfizer have 90-95% effectiveness. Last I checked 1+1=2, so that’s 2 vaccines with that level of efficacy.
2. The trials were stopped (e.g. AZ in Brazil), side effects investigated, and were all determined NOT to have been caused by the vaccine (hence the trials were restarted).
3. Your last sections are all platitudes, so I struggle to respond to the claims individually.
Kyle a fair number of people will see this BS for what it is. I’m not the victim of your misinformation. The people who don’t know better are. And you really should be ashamed.
Matthew this is super disappointing. I’ve always thought you’re a smart guy, on the center-right, but thoughtful and reasonable. Kyle in the past few weeks/months has gone totally nuclear and with each passing rant he further degrades the reputation of this website. There are plenty of good people out there who need work; I suggest you find one of them and relieve yourself and the rest of us of these incoherent ramblings.
Kyle, you really need to understand clinical trial work before you go spouting things like it was “misdosed.” In many clinical trials, some vaccine trials included, different dosage regimens are tested to find out if one is better than another. While I don’t think the Astrzeneca’s vaccine will be as nearly as good as say Moderna’s, because it uses older but proven technology, it doesn’t need really cold storage like Moderna’s–that’s a plus for developing countries. I will also be the first to blog about the success or failures of AZ’s vaccine when the next phase 3 results are published in a peer-reviewed medical journal but it will be fair.
It is quite likely that airline policy will be no jab no fly and/or possibly proof of having had the virus (like positive antigen test) at some point. If that’s what it takes to get international flying again, so be it. I’m in a vulnerable age group and unlike all the stupids and anti-vaxxers I will be getting the shots as soon as they are offered to me. My mother is currently dying in hospital in the UK and I can’t get to her in time because of UK quarantine regs. If the vaccine had been available sooner maybe I could have said goodbye. I’d like to blame a lot of people for the current situation including some on this web site but that’s a topic for another day.
@Marissa – I am sorry about your mother but the good news is, current survivability is very, very high (historical numbers skew.) But with regard to the term misdosed and my use of it, I am citing a source who is undoubtedly more qualified than either of us (I don’t know your profession so I can only guess.) If they shouldn’t have used the term misdosed then, respectfully, it’s up to CNN, the AP, and whoever else published the same piece to correct it. If not, then it may remain true.
“Notably, Vice President-elect Harris has said she would be unlikely to take a vaccine developed under President Trump’s administration.”
This blatantly misrepresents what she said (and what your source says she said). Doing things like this ruins your credibility when you make other representations throughout the post.
I guess the only difference here as to whether VP-elect Harris will take it is if Donald Trump says people should in the next 52 days. We can’t know if he will or won’t and if she will or won’t, just what she has said and published.
But I’d counter that your credibility is negated by ignoring the studies cited that cross party, political, religious, and racial lines. I cited publications that are from of-color outlets whose respondents share a higher level of concern than the US more broadly. I’m not sure how you can ignore the general resistance to a vaccine even of diverse communities or why you would? Doesn’t this create the same surprise and shock when things don’t go as expected? People of all races, creeds, political affiliations, and backgrounds are telling you – explicitly – they have concerns over the nature of the rollout. Haven’t we learned enough from not listening to masses of people when they clearly state their intentions?
https://youtu.be/40eZeXPyJ0g
You COMPLETELY misrepresented what she said. “If the public health officials, doctors, Dr Fauci, tell me to take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it” were the first words out of her mouth.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx
When the polio vaccine came out, only 60% of gallup respondents were willing to take it. Look at how history played out. (thankfully).
This article reeks of confirmation bias.
I posted the video and linked the source. I supplied additional sources as well. Her conditions are her conditions, she said what she said. So what happens if both Fauci and Trump say to take it? Disruption in space-time continuum based on her vaccine decision? Or she could go Newsom with it and mandate vaccines and close schools while his own kids are unvaccinated and attending in-person. Lots of options here…
This is what she said (note the capitalized) word.
“Sen. Kamala Harris of California made clear Wednesday that President Trump’s word, ALONE, would not be enough to earn her trust in the safety and effectiveness of a future Covid-19 vaccine.”
She goes on to state she would trust Fauci’s recommendation.
So, to your question. “So what happens if both Fauci and Trump say to take it? “. Well, she would take it. How can you not see this?
I think the other poster covered pretty well why what you said was dishonest.
Although I consider myself pretty credible, my credibility isn’t really relevant to your post. I’ll note that at least the one US poll mentioned with a date on it is from early September and another looks like its from October. Some important developments have happened since then and there are more recent polls you ignored.
At all events, you misrepresented something to try to support your argument. That should bother you. But my guess is you don’t care that much about your credibilty; you got your clicks, which is more important.
@Kyle: it’s incorrect (one of the things I do is design and analyze clinical trials for a living). But now I understand where you got your info from it’s clear that the news media didn’t get it either). I always try to go to the primary source of the study (medical journal) if possible. If you ever need any help in this dept let me know 🙂
An untested vaccine already becoming mandatory to fly?! Wait until the side effects start happening that are more damaging than the virus itself. It’s unprecedented to roll out a vaccine this soon, but the media has ginned up so much fear, that Big Pharma is having a landslide pay day. And once again, ordinary people will pay the price. Anyone who falls for this will suffer the consequences.
Good, one less person to compete with for the vaccine when it gets ramped up. More people like you means sooner for me! And, even better, the ability to freely travel and have more access to premium cabin seats to countries that will require it.
Whatever makes you think the vaccines are untested? Stop regurgitating tired anti vaxx tropes.
Can I just point out that Australia doesn’t “share” a travel bubble with New Zealand. Right now, it’s one-way only — from New Zealand to select Australian states. Otherwise I would be heading home for Christmas
Noted.
Here is my idea. Sometime after end of next year, at the airports after security there should be a covid mist station blessed by religious leaders of all faiths.
Everyone has to pass through this covid mist station. Those vaccinated and thus blessed by science will not get the hoax flu. Those unvaccinated and thus blessed by their religion, most will be ok, but a few will get sick of the hoax flu. Those are sinful devils that deserve to die anyway and go to hell. Since this is a hoax flu they are probably getting sick due to past sins. Even their religions blessing could not save them.
What do you think? Either we get rid of a few sinners at a time or we force many of them to stay home. I love this idea. Would be fewer people at airports. Win, win.
So, I’m curious, Kyle. Are you going to take the vaccine?
Will I voluntarily choose a tested, proven, and safe vaccine? Sure. But That’s a pretty sharp departure from: required, minimally tested, unproven (at least to now), and without known side effects.
My decision, that I will take it the second I can, even if it means injecting it in my eye, is based on these factors:
1. Risk/Reward. We are not talking the flu. It’s Covid, and millions will die. Millions more will have long term health issues. To me, the risk Covid presents appears far more dangerous long term to global health, both physically and mentally, and worth the minimal risk the vaccine may present. Add in the potential economic destruction it could bring globally…especially impacting developing countries which will lead to famine and war.
2. Science. Trump did not, despite what he says, have anything to do with this vaccine. Further, the research and work on Moderna and Pfizer vaccines had started long before Covid, I think 1-2 years before and was in relation to SARS. It is not some shotgun development over the past few months and why it just so happens they could develop it quickly.
3. The trials went so quickly not because they rushed them, or did them any differently than other trials, but because so many people have/had Covid worldwide (especially in the U.S.) that it allowed for faster results. A silver lining in what would have been months more, even years, if Covid was just mildly seen globally (and why other vaccines take so much time..not enough people with the illness to truly test its efficacy)
4. By the time most of us will be eligible, maybe March, Hundreds of millions worldwide will have received it, including doctors and nurses. While the long term can’t be seen, we will certainly have any short term revealings by then and, even better, a choice of vaccines to take. It’s like when I’m kayaking a river. Standing above a nasty looking rapid, if you get to watch a few of your buddies run it first, see that it’s far easier and safer than you think, the confidence level goes way up (which is why by summer I imagine over 70% of the U.S. will get it). An example is right in your backyard on the Top Yough, Kyle, Swallow Falls for years looked unrunnable as a rapid to kayakers..then a few did it, weeks later a few more, within months everyone would run it as it was realized to be safe and easily managed.
Given these factors, how any rational human being would not be vaccinated for this by summer is beyond me. Sure, Flu or Shingles, roll the dice, odds are you won’t get it and if it bothers you to get a shot, avoid it. Covid though is a SERIOUS thing, In many ways humanity and our way of life is completely dependent on this vaccine. People need to wake the heck up.
Stuart, thank you for volunteering to be a guinea pig for the new covid vaccine. I sincerely appreciate it. If it truly is safe, after tens of millions around the world have taken it with no serious side effects, then I will do the same.
My pleasure!
Most importantly
1. Funding wasnt an issue. It normally is for other vaccines
2. Regulators are on the ball for approvals
to follow up, would you/have you vaccinated your own children against vaccine-preventable childhood illnesses?
How will one prove they have had the vaccine? Will a certificate be given out when you have the second injection? Will it be internationally accepted? Safeguards against fake copies? Do I still need to wear a mask? And other questions.
British travellers who have been inoculated against coronavirus could have their passports stamped to show they have had the vaccine in a boost for the tourism industry.
https://news.yahoo.com/britons-vaccine-stamps-passports-overseas-162333672.html
I don’t trust any vaccine released during the Trump administration. I urge everyone to wait on taking it until Jan. 20. #IStandWithKamala
WTF. You are literally giving credence to the worst misrepresentations Kyle was insisting on throughout this article.
Is this trolling or are you actually that deluded?
Anyone that wishes to take a DNA altering un tested chemical injected into your body, well, YOU FIRST. Lets get “Mikey” he will try anything. All vaccines have risk. All vaccines react differently with each blood type.
I hope Quantas goes bankrupt and fails. Survival of the smartest. The unreliable testing and false positive results are a fact. The co-morbidity is also a fact. This is not some super bug it is an engineered flu. The death and infection counts corrected for false testing and fraud make it less of a killer than normal seasonal flu bugs. FACT. This is being used by big pharma and the NWO to ushering the “Global Reset” You sheep out there better wake-up or like lemmings you will be directed off the cliff.
Yeah, And TWA is still a world class airline with 747’s plying the world. About as equally absurd as everything you said.
Stuart, it is so easy to refute a post without providing any facts or arguments isn’t it? It totally demolishes your credibility. I guess it’s because you can’t provide facts and scientific proof that all vaccines have the exact same outcome when interacting with every human being despite the fact that every person’s DNA is different.
Read up the threads. You will find it. As well, your simply making statements also does not make them true. Because they are not and you have nothing to go on other than discredited bs and conspiracy website bs. Which is why you offer not a single trace of evidence….just hot air.
You dont even know the difference between DNA & RNA. Your education has been a waste. Now go to natural news dot com and help those shills for Big nature enriich themselves further
I think it makes sense (or Qantas might not have much choice) because Australia itself might require vaccination as an entry requirement. For countries with little to no community spread, test-and-release simply isn’t good enough to stay that way.
I don’t agree with their stringent strategy and think Japan/Korea have been the best models to follow. But I can’t change their minds…
What everyone is forgetting is the Australian government had hinted it may be mandatory not just to enter the country but perhaps even to leave or at least come back without a 14 day quarantine. Qantas are an easier target of the anti-vaxxer brigade because they have a socially progressive CEO wheras the government is from the conservative side of politics and at least said it may not be mandatory for locals unless they want to travel.
It may well be the case that Qantas will be in a minority of airlines mandating it and Australia in a minority of countries if it goes ahead. But Qantas/Australia obviously thought of it and made the decision that any cost from losing anti-vaxxer passengers is minimal compared to the cost of a potential outbreak in Australia – my state (NSW) has 8 million people and had just 4,000 cases. Bear in mind, it has taken just 5 out of 130,000 returned travellers in hotel quarantine (yes in hotels, not at home – at a passenger’s expense) since March to send two different Australian states (Victoria and South Australia) back into lockdown through hotel staff unknowingly transmitting it into the community.
Most Airlines are stupid, this QANTAS example demonstrates the mindset. Simply, in recent years Airlines started to believe their own arrogance in the sense that “they need us more than we need them”. They thought that they could screw their Customers “any which way but how” because they thought they had the control. Actually, nobody cares much about Airlines anymore, not least when they screwed their Customers and pocketed their money to add to their cashflow requirements so to survive.
History will show how Airlines lost the plot and created their own demise. But Airline Management will be the last to see this, when they do they will go to Governments with a begging bowl in an attempt to rescue their excessive salaries and benefits. and sheer stupidity.
I reject your hypothesis out of hand. QANTAS would be a beneficiary of such a policy rather than a victim, as informed and sophisticated flyers would actively choose them rather than be cooped-up with the anti-vaxx feral riff-raff permitted to fly on other carriers.
I support the right of others to decline vaccination; however, they must accept the consequences, inter alia, denied flights, denied entry, limited access to public spaces and facilities. By all means they can live in ‘splendid isolation’
Very true. Forced vaccination is a terrible idea but anti vaxxers must live with the consequences of their decisions. Simple.
We don’t always agree, Paolo, but this was well said. I will defend always a person’s right to smoke, as an example, but I will not defend them thinking they can come to a bar or restaurant indoors and smoke.
Common sense will prevail. And just like masks, despite Trump and his craziness the past months, are now far more prevalent and accepted (thank you to real leaders in this country). The mania over anti-vax will also quickly recede. These people are full of hot air and I bet half of them will be lining up at first chance begging for it within a few months. Why? Because they will realize that their employer will require it and anywhere they want to travel to it will be necessary. Amazing how that works.
Get your jab you filthy Trumptards, or else stay home and watch Faux Noise and cry about losing the White House! Everything is a conspiracy, right idiots?!
I think you underestimate the fear in society over this thing. Qantas will be fine, and I will be surprised if a vaccine isn’t mandated globally should one want to travel, and live a normal life. This virus has scared the hell out of people.
My only question is this: if you have already had it (and assuming that a antibody test could tell), do you have to get the vaccine.
I tested positive back in May. I am not young (not too old either) but I had no symptoms other than dry nasal passages – no fever, no headache, nothing else. I travel internationally a lot. I tested negative two weeks later.
I hope I don’t have to get the vaccine but even that won’t surprise me. The fear is off the charts and has become accepted/politically correct/a virtue-signalling tool/a political litmus test.
I agree that sometimes the fear factor can get out of control. I have relatives who won’t leave the house. That said you are clearly missing the bigger picture here. 266K+ people have died. That isn’t fake news. That is real. It’s great that you didn’t suffer from COVID, but for a lot of people that’s not what happens.
Let’s not mistake genuine concern and caution about a deadly pandemic with “virtue signalling” please.
One thing that disqualifies for me a decision like Quantas’ is completely ignoring the population that had had Covid-19, with or without sympthoms, and have acquired an immunity just like those who take a vaccine would.
In order to fly Quantas, those people will have to make a step that is 100% unneeded ans might even be dangerous (as that this population has si far been excluded from tha vaccines’ tests’ scope)
Excellent point and one I’ve thought of in other contexts but didn’t apply here. If it is “antibodies or vaccine” the whole proposition changes for much of the flying public. The risk level is actually lower for those with antibodies than either vaccine that’s published results, it doesn’t involve taking the vaccine at all, and costs are lower.
“Excellent point”
proclaims Kyle
Immunity lasts 3-6 months after infection, geniuses.
@Matt – What’s the length of those studies? I’ll let you guess.
The CDC doesn’t say, well, anything about reinfection other than that it is “rare” which isn’t helpful. https://bitly.com/39tjKHC
But there is a study that shows the number at five. That’s five reinfections, worldwide, out of 60+ million cases. The US owns about 20% of those cases and there has been one reported and one additional suspected. https://bit.ly/2U4imCC
If immunity studies run four to six months, and there have not been any instances of lost immunity outside of these 1 in 10-12 million confirmed examples then that doesn’t mean immunity only runs 3-6 months. It means the studies haven’t gone longer than that (how could they?) but it’s at least that long, genius.
Nice way to cherry pick data. The natural immunity conferred by getting the disease seems to wear off after a time. Ho hum, just another day in anti vax land
There’s no study that shows it wears off. The confusion is that studies have only run four months (the first one about six months into the virus) and the second one that’s just completed ran seven months (started later in the process.) If the studies could have run three years, it’s possible that immunity would have lasted as long, but to claim that because a study has only had the time to run seven months and concluded immunity remained as it only lasting seven months is incorrect. https://bit.ly/2U4g9qO
There have been just five cases of reinfection globally of 60+ million cases which are statistical anomalies anyway. https://bit.ly/2U4imCC
That doesn’t make someone anti-vaxxer – it means they read the available information and trust studies from the Universities of Washington and Arizona. It would be as logical to say that there are just 60 million worldwide cases when of course some have not been counted and the counting hasn’t stopped because it’s not yet over. It’s true, immunity has only been proven to last the length of the studies, but it’s also true to say that there have only been five reinfections. If we are going to listen to the scientists, shouldn’t we listen all of them?
Wasn’t referring to you but the OP. The fact remains that we are barely a year into the situation so there is not adequate data regarding reinfections. Why one vaccine should bother anyone is quite sad. It has to be proven to be safe, which is in process. If it’s not safe it’s not going to be released because it will scare people away from getting it and lead to a resurgence of this disease
At the end of the day most of are going to “voluntarily” get the vaccine one way or another. It may be because we want to travel and airlines and/or countries require it, It may be because we want to work at certain locations/jobs or go to schools that require it. It may be because we believe it is safe, or at least safer than not taking the vaccine. A lot of the people who are stating they won’t take it, will in the end take it. How many people have said they will never fly ABC airline ever again yet do so not long later because it is the cheapest or best option. And then there is the human herd instinct which means that people will follow the leader. So fair, or not, most us will be vaccinated and by our own choice albeit a choice made necessary by the rules that that surround us. In the end we all be safer because of the vaccine whether you get it yourself or not.
Maybe. I don’t disagree with your thoughts on the “I’ll never fly X or stay in Y again.” But I am also less convinced that everyone is simply going to get it at some point just because. They don’t do it with the flu vaccine or yellow fever now, so to assume everyone is going to do it is presumptive to me.
This is hardly a flu or yellow fever. Kyle, c’mon, seriously?
This virus/pandemic/whatever the hell you want to call it, is one of the most catastrophic and dangerous health and economic risks of the past 100 years. I mean, it’s like you are saying that we take Hitler too seriously because, ya know, Kaiser Wilhelm was not that bad.
Wake the heck up…people will take it. This is not the freakin flu. And in the next few weeks, when virtually every household in this country is affected by it they will all be begging.
@Stuart – This is the last volley on this because I am sure we both have better things to do. To be clear, you’re comparing a virus to Hitler. I guess, in some way, I could have been on board with that when the mortality rate in Italy was 11%. But in November, new cases in the US went to 4.3 million with total deaths for November at 36,000. We know the data is trailing, but without a vaccine in play now, the mortality has already dropped some 12x. And we would both agree those numbers are flawed too due to the number who are asymptomatic and those that have had it and recovered but weren’t tested at the time.
It’s not the flu, but the comparison I was drawing is that the flu vaccine is out there and doesn’t get taken by 75% of the population. Of those that take it, it varies in efficacy by year.
You and I have a differing view about the severity of the virus. It’s not something either of us can be objective about. We both believe in science and we both believe in math, but there’s gray in between that we see completely different. You see 4 million new cases as bodies in the streets, but I look at the math and see that we are far more successful against the virus than in April when daily deaths were higher and cases were a fraction of the current numbers. You see a worsening situation, I say decreased risk. You think every home will be begging for the vaccine, I read surveys from traditionally left-leaning sites (as posted in the piece) that state 40-50% won’t take it if offered for free.
I wish you the best and we all hope the virus subsides soon by any means necessary.
You don’t decide when it’s the last volley, Kyle. Unless you wish to ban me from the site.
36K people died in November in the U.S. From a pandemic that is out of control. How many families has that affected? How many lives are forever changed? You treat these deaths as a forgone conclusion – like Covid is just a part of a normal life and year.
How many doctors and nurses have to risk their lives each day as the beds fill up and are nearing capacity? What happens when they do (and most likely will in the next few weeks)? How many people with other illnesses go untreated as our health system is strained?
1/3 of small business have shut their doors permanently in the state of New Jersey so far this year (as an example). How many more will around the country because this was never managed properly?
We are headed for the darkest months we may ever see in our lifetime. People have no idea the suffering and tragedy we are about to witness. That’s why, despite your usual cherry picking numbers to fit your narrative, people will take the vaccine – and most of those now running their mouths off about not taking it are going to be so scared out of their minds by January that they will be begging for it.
I say this as someone who has now lost three friends to this virus that should have had years left in their lives. Including one whose eulogy I did this weekend in Dallas. So excuse me if I have no patience whatsoever for your dribble. When more people, maybe even you, have this affect them directly in witnessing these losses or attending their funerals, that vaccine will be the hottest commodity ever and 70% of the country will happily take it.
What a load of rubbish! Qantas will be just fine.
It is one of the world’s safest airline and is taking the step to ensure the safety of its passengers. True to its brand, it is exactly what Qantas should be doing!
In its 100-year history, it has continuously amassed an amazing record of firsts in operations and safety and is now accepted as the industry’s most experienced airline and has a strong brand loyalty. Not to mention that it will soon has almost a monopoly of domestic business travelers in Australia due to Virgin Australia troubles. So, I don’t think it will curl up and die because of this.
Kyle knows that. He just loves to bait with sensational titles and content to flex his naive muscles for clicks and some sort of acceptance. I am usually good at ignoring his posts for that reason…I admit though that today I got caught up in it.
His Disney World suggestions seem to be good though! Fitting.
I am happy to have a vaccine and happy to continue flying with my preferred airline, Qantas. Indeed, I would not fly on an airline that did not demand a vaccine.
I think it’s highly likely that other air carriers/countries will follow suit with Qantas’ decision to require proof of vaccination in order to fly internationally. Countries that already have lower infection rates (Australia, New Zealand, etc.) simply won’t be willing to risk outbreaks in their own counties generated by non-citizens. The costs to their own citizens’ health as well as the cost to those countries’ health care systems would simply be too great. As you mentioned there will be many who will opt out of being vaccinated. Therefore, the risk of spread will remain substantial until herd immunity is achieved. Additionally, the current testing program for testing involves a much greater likelihood of missing infected individuals (i.e., inaccuracies in the tests themselves as well as an inability to detect infection in those individuals who were infected too recently before a trip to yield accurate results). Administratively, it will simply be much easier to verify proof of vaccination rather than having to keep track of testing windows. This really is no different from a time when the requirement for vaccination to/from high risk areas was routine. Actually, this still is the case in some places, such as when there is a cholera outbreak. Additionally, expect mask requirements to remain in effect when flying for at least 1 -2 years. Remember, a vaccine approved for use in children is unlikely to become available for another year. This will add to the delay in our achieving herd immunity.
This whole conversation seems totally pointless. The AUS government is going to make it mandatory to have the vaccine to enter the country-meaning to fly on QANTAS you will have to have the vaccine. IMO it was a little silly for Qantas to come out and say this as it’s drummed up some negative press over something they won’t have a say over anyway.
That is the point. Australia first and most European governments are going to require proof of vaccination (just like many countries do for Yellow Fever) for entry without mandatory 14 day quarantine. Who is going to go on a business trip which has to be extended by 14 days and similarly vacationers will be unhappy with that restriction. Secondly without vaccination travel insurance is going to be, at best, expensive and in many cases unobtainable. If you can be shown to introduce COVID into an otherwise free area what is your potential liability? In other words its going to be “no vaccine, no travel”.
I agree entirely.
The mention of soon to be VP Kamala Harris as an example of a point is misleading. Her statement was highly political and a campaign tactic. She doesn’t object to vaccines not developed in conjunction with the Trump administration. Presumably she is ok with the British AstraZeneca vaccine. Watch as she is either secretly one of the first to get it or C openly as in the second wave to get it after health care workers.
The vaccine isn’t completely necessary. Look at the 1918 Spanish flu, no vaccine. The however, with massive non-vaccination, Spanish flu era people were masks a lot. If there is 100% mask wearing and 100% lockdown, which won’t happen, Covid-19 would mostly end by the end of December.
no jab-no fly is the wave of the future. get used to it.
If it sticks with that policy i hope it goes broke!
Disgusted Aussie expat